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Tullioz

I would agree with you if there was a presumption of innocence and due process. But there's not. If someone thinks you are guilty of something then you are. Just because you're not what other people would consider to be a good person doesn't mean you deserve to be shot. For example, you can be an asshole. It's not a crime to be an asshole or a rude son of a bitch. Just because someone is an ass or eccentric it doesn't mean they deserve to die. The recent case of Robertus Ploeg should be a testament to that. There was no evidence that's come forward he was a pedophile. With the exception of policy testimony that 'he was looking at young girls naked on the computer'. Really? Have any ages for those girls? Or just a feeling? There are many unknown details. And hey, we will never know those details because they decided to kill the guy instead of prosecute him with a crime.

 

It's also terrifying that you think the police should be able to act without any evidence of wrong doing.

 

There were 5 million foreign visitors to the Philippines last year. How many of them were victims of vigilantes? How many were arrested under RA  7610? As for Robertus Ploeg, I have no way of knowing if he was guilty or not, but either way his situation, while unfortunate, is extremely rare. 

 

In every case where someone was arrested RA 7610, they were doing something other than simply being alone with the minor(s) that raised suspicion and led to their arrest. 

 

Since this clause is written as an effort to protect minors, I don't have a problem with the police taking a person in for questioning under this law if there is reasonable suspicion that there is a crime taking place. It's better than the alternative of waiting for a crime to take place. 

 

 

Mentioned is fine - is it normally granted though?

 

Few would object to severe punishment for abusing a minor.

 

But this topic is not about abusing them.

 

It's about being in the company of an under 18 year old, no matter what the intent may be (harmless or otherwise).

 

That's a problem in the Philippines as a result of law with good intent, but very badly written.

RA 7610 in particular.

 

Bail is always granted if someone is charged under Article VI; Section 10b.  I like the law myself and it seems to be working as it was designed as far as I can tell. Before this law the authorities had to wait until after a minor was abused to make an arrest. Now if they suspect abuse they can prevent the minor from going through the ordeal of being raped or even worse. There has been no evidence to support that it is being used to frame foreigners or anyone else in the 24 years it has been on the books, so there is no reason anyone should want it repealed. Only those who are in this country to exploit and abuse minors need to be concerned about it. Hopefully just the wording of the clause its self will keep a lot of the predators away. 

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I wonder how often this topic is bought up in Expat Forums in other S.E. Countries or even any other countries , as it appears to here in the Philippines....... :idontknow:

 

Maybe other countries don't have such badly written laws as the Philippines RA 7610

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In every case where someone was arrested RA 7610, they were doing something other than simply being alone with the minor(s) that raised suspicion and led to their arrest.

 

Really? I seem to remember a Swede who was sitting with a girl while her aunt used the CR. They were at the ferry terminal after having taken the girl to the doctor. I never saw anything later that said the Swede was doing anything nefarious, and I'm sure we would have if there had been anything.

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Tullioz

Really? I seem to remember a Swede who was sitting with a girl while her aunt used the CR. They were at the ferry terminal after having taken the girl to the doctor. I never saw anything later that said the Swede was doing anything nefarious, and I'm sure we would have if there had been anything.

 

What was the date of this case? There have been a few Swedes arrested with minors in recent years. If it is the one I am thinking of, the woman turned out not to be the girl's aunt.

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Davaoeno

 

 

That's a problem in the Philippines as a result of law with good intent, but very badly written.

 

 

agreed!

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date of this case? There have been a few Swedes arrested with minors in recent years. If it is the one I am thinking of, the woman turned out not to be the girl's aunt.

Yes, and it was a neighbor of the girl who had alerted the police!

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rainymike

That last section that says:

 

"or any bond recognized by law, local custom and tradition or acts in the performance of a social, moral or legal duty. "

 

Could cover a lot of situation. Especially the local customs and social duty.

 

I think the intent of the law is pretty clear. A little common sense should keep the average person out of compromising situations.

 

I strongly recommend against doing stuff like this (Chinese man claims he can see women's futures by groping their chests).

 

http://www.socialtrendsph.com/2016/10/chinese-man-claims-he-can-see-womens.html

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  Do you really think that this will in any way help you in court

if the person is under 18 then the person is under 18

 

even if he/she showed a birth certificate will not help if she/he shows up to be under 18

 

Sorry mate - but you have missed the key point!

 

If the (unrelated) person is under 18,  there is no defense! -- Even an age affidavit sworn before a judge is no defense!

 

Oh!, and it's a non-bailable offense, so you will have plenty of time in jail to prepare a case for your defense when you eventually get to court. (maybe 5 years later).

 

With luck the judge will treat you lightly.

 

 

Welcome to the Philippines where it's more fun!

 

 

I had no intention to "put you down" and I don't think that I was rude.

 

Your suggestion to find an older female was good advice.

 

But you published something which suggested that videoing an age claim could be a defense, contrary to what had been published earlier by others.

 

It would not be a successful defense and anyone relying on it could find themselves in serious trouble!

 

That's why I responded strongly.

No worries Oz Jon,

 

anyway it can be an interesting discussion if we remain respectful.... I understand what you are saying but my idea that if a foreigner is with a female Filipino, that sometimes is hard to workout their age, especially for newer visitors, As we know some up to 25 could look like 18 or younger then if they were with you and you asked them for their ID, they showed you the ID (could be their sisters as you really are not sure?)...

 

So you ask them to say in front of a live video camera that they are the age in the ID ( could be anything like 22 for example) you take a video of them along with a close up of the ID. Then later on you get pulled up as this girl was 17 or whatever but she said she was 22, had her sisters ID and deceived you to think it was her ID.

 

Now you have done the right thing by making sure she was legal age and asked for ID and even got to her make a confession on tape along with filming the ID as more proof.

 

OK so lets put that aside for a moment... Now you meet a women who looks to be 23 and you have been to the Philippines a few times. She says she is 23 and shows you ID. You look at her and your previous experience tells you that she looks like 22 or at least 20.  You meet her family and they all assure you she is 23 and you have nothing to fear, heck even the, aunt, uncle, the shop keeper, a few cousins all assure you she is 23.

 

So fast forward, you have a relationship for 2 months and then you finally have sex, yeah your a nice guy taking it slow ... then all of a sudden the Police are there, arresting you ( I'm using Skywalkers example of his PC Philippines where it is seldom  for vigilantes to operate so we take the civil line..).

 

Now they take you to the police station and there is her older sister and her, the parents and the rest of the family accusing you of having sex with an underage female. (I'm not saying this is common but just using a worst case example) The true confessions come out, she is an old looking 17 year old who has worked in the sun all her life in rice fields so she looks much older than 17.

 

So you see what I'm saying, this would mean that with the theory of you have no rights, no case for defense if the girl is underage and she lied through her teeth, her family supported her lies and all this time you were misled to think she was 23. So that means many foreigners from what I have seen there are walking on a tight rope unless they are somehow able to get the female and himself to a legal office and have a document prepared to confirm the female is the age she has said. If not you could be in serious trouble

 

I'm not sure how you would get to the legal office with her without also been in trouble for been with a minor so take separate cabs.

 

All foreigners should now stop having any contact with any female under 25 or that could possible in her late teens until they get some official document as even if they have ID, their family confirms it, they confirm it in writing, on video or whatever it means nothing, .

 

I'm not joking, according to what has been discussed then not doing this could get you thrown into a Filipino jail for many years at best.

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What was the date of this case? There have been a few Swedes arrested with minors in recent years. If it is the one I am thinking of, the woman turned out not to be the girl's aunt.

 

So what happened in the case? We never heard any more about it after he was arrested and then released. I believe he was from Masbate. Generally, if there is a trial, it makes the news.

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Tullioz

So what happened in the case? We never heard any more about it after he was arrested and then released. I believe he was from Masbate. Generally, if there is a trial, it makes the news.

 

You made it sound like this man was arrested for simply being alone with a minor. That was not the case at all and was what I was wanting to show. The girl was from Masbate and the man was arrested in Cebu after he had been reported to authorities by a neighbor several days earlier. That means at the very least they stayed somewhere together for several nights. 

 

In the joint-affidavit executed by the Cebu port police, they stated that on February 16, 2012 they received a text message from P/Supt. Glenn Sarador directing them to intercept a “possible suspect of trafficking which was only described as a foreigner with a minor.”

 

However, police admitted their failure to intercept the foreigner with a minor when they arrived at the Port of Cebu. The police said they only apprehended the foreigner on February 20, 2012 when he was about to board a ship for Masbate.

 

The girl's behavior at the time also raised suspicion. 

 

When Port Police Inspector Romulo Alcazar Jr. asked the nine-year-old girl what was her relationship with the foreigner, the minor “hesitantly” answered that the Swedish national was her uncle.

He was charged under Article VI: Section 10b for being in a hotel with a minor. 

 

Cellona recommended P200,000 bail for the violation of Section 5(b) for exploiting children in prostitution and other sexual abuse, and another P120,000 for the violation of Section 10(b) for keeping minors in his company in a hotel.

 

The minor later said some things that would definitely lead to further investigation.

 

The minor said that when they were about to sleep the foreigner kissed her on her cheeks and “dodo (breasts)” while she also kissed the foreigner’s cheeks and sometimes on the lips.   

 

http://beta.philstar.com/cebu-news/2012/02/27/781302/2-counts-child-abuse-swedish-national-out-bail

 

Apparently there was enough evidence for him to be charged with rape, but he denied the allegations according to this report from November 2012.

 

post-15209-0-71870400-1476870506.jpg

https://www.pressreader.com/philippines/superbalita-cebu/20121117/281517928399826

 

That's the latest I could find on the case. While he may or may not be guilty, lying about his companion being the girl's aunt right from the start didn't help his case and tarnished his credibility. 

 

The moral of this story. Don't give your girlfriend's neighbors money and take their 9 year old granddaughter out of town for several days. Whether your intentions are good or not, you will probably go to jail. Perhaps for a very long time. 

 

This is an excellent example of how Article VI; Section 10b  found in RA 7610  is used and why it is a good law as written. Unfortunately the police did not catch up to this guy before he left Masbate with the minor.

Edited by Tullioz
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smokey

There were 5 million foreign visitors to the Philippines last year. How many of them were victims of vigilantes? How many were arrested under RA  7610? As for Robertus Ploeg, I have no way of knowing if he was guilty or not, but either way his situation, while unfortunate, is extremely rare. 

 

In every case where someone was arrested RA 7610, they were doing something other than simply being alone with the minor(s) that raised suspicion and led to their arrest. 

 

Since this clause is written as an effort to protect minors, I don't have a problem with the police taking a person in for questioning under this law if there is reasonable suspicion that there is a crime taking place. It's better than the alternative of waiting for a crime to take place. 

 

 

 

Bail is always granted if someone is charged under Article VI; Section 10b.  I like the law myself and it seems to be working as it was designed as far as I can tell. Before this law the authorities had to wait until after a minor was abused to make an arrest. Now if they suspect abuse they can prevent the minor from going through the ordeal of being raped or even worse. There has been no evidence to support that it is being used to frame foreigners or anyone else in the 24 years it has been on the books, so there is no reason anyone should want it repealed. Only those who are in this country to exploit and abuse minors need to be concerned about it. Hopefully just the wording of the clause its self will keep a lot of the predators away. 

5 million that it...??????????????????????????   and how many to viet nam or thailand ?    all these laws are written so is the no parking signs written dont mean squat its enforced that has meaning 

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SkyMan
So you see what I'm saying

You're saying a lot of confusing things about a not so confusing a subject.  The law says, "Sex with a minor is illegal."  The law does not say how you're supposed to determine if they are or are not a minor.  If you're wrong you're afoul of the law.  That's it. Guilty.  No amount of "He said...", "She had a....", "They swore...." will get you anywhere.  Video or not.

 

Although if you have the parents on video swearing she's 18 you might be able to also get them in legal hot water but it won't help your case.

Edited by SkyMan
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smokey

I personally don't like scum bags that harm children and if they get lead oh well but I feel that way about all scum bags but I have found over the years some scum bags are like Teflon

 

dons...

 

 

 

Maybe some day the PNP will go door to door and see what really goes on behind closed fences...

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Davaoeno

 

 

I think the intent of the law is pretty clear

 

I have to disagree, and i think that this comes up so often is that it is not clear enough.  Any law which has such draconian consequences for any offender must be made abundantly clear and not open to conjecture . It is not at all hard to word something so that there is no possible misinterpretation.  And in laws such as this I think that is absolutely necessary

 

 

 

this would mean that with the theory of you have no rights, no case for defense

 

I disagree. You always have rights, one of them being to file a defense.  And  even if you should get convicted of something things such as you mentioned will always be taken into account in the sentencing phase.  Your warnings come across more like Chicken Little than rational. 

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Sorry mate - but you have missed the key point!

 

If the (unrelated) person is under 18,  there is no defense! -- Even an age affidavit sworn before a judge is no defense!

 

Oh!, and it's a non-bailable offense, so you will have plenty of time in jail to prepare a case for your defense when you eventually get to court. (maybe 5 years later).

 

With luck the judge will treat you lightly.

 

 

Welcome to the Philippines where it's more fun!

 

If it's a non-bailable defense, how did Preston Jay Kuntz skip bail?

 

Google him, can no longer find the actual news articles but that appears to be what happened:  skipped bail, PH tried to extradite him but no indication that succeeded, now apparently as a free-lance L.A. based photographer.

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