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Marines say they don't want women


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Can any who took the vacation back in the 60's conceive of the problems they would have caused in extended field operations when?

 

Admittedly the sandbox(s) are totally different but there will come a time of extended ops when stamina and mental endurance will be taxed and broken.

 

Sound familiar? Want to achieve a predetermine goal? Change the requirements.

 

"They called for sweeping reviews of the physical requirements for combat jobs and gave the military services until January 2016 to argue if any positions should remain closed to women."

 

More importantly - the rate of war crime retributions will be astronomical when a female is captured and tortured.

 

 

 

"The Marine Corps reportedly will ask to keep several front-line combat jobs closed to women, bucking the trend being followed by the other three military services.

The Associated Press, citing U.S. officials, reported Friday that the Corps' tentative decision has ignited tension between Navy and Marine leaders and raised a debate over whether Navy Secretary Ray Mabus can veto any Marine Corps proposal to prohibit women from serving in certain infantry and reconnaissance positions.

The AP reported that no final decision had been made or presented to Marine leaders, but officials say Defense Secretary Ash Carter is aware of the dispute and intends to review the Marine plan.

The report comes nine days after the Marines released a study that found that all-male infantry units performed at a higher-level than units with women in them. Specifically, the study found that the all-male units moved faster, shot more accurately, could carry more weight and suffered fewer injuries than gender-integrated units. The injuries suffered by female Marines included stress fractures that likely resulted from carrying heavy loads.

The report did acknowledge that "female Marines have performed superbly in the combat environments of Iraq and Afghanistan and are fully part of the fabric of a combat-hardened Marine Corps after the longest period of continuous combat operations in the Corps' history."

But the report also pointed to the 25-year-old report by a presidential commission on women in the armed forces that concluded: "Risking the lives of a military unit in combat to provide career opportunities or accommodate the personal desires or interests of an individual, or group of individuals, is more than bad military judgment. It is morally wrong."

 

The ongoing divide has put Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Joseph Dunford in the spotlight as he prepares to take over as Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff next week. And it puts him in a somewhat awkward position of eventually having to review and pass judgment -- as chairman -- on a waiver request that he submitted himself while serving as Marine commandant.

Officials say the Army, Navy and Air Force are expected to allow women to serve in all combat jobs and will not ask Carter for any exceptions. They say that Special Operations Command is also likely to allow women to compete for the most demanding military commando jobs -- including the Navy SEALs -- though with the knowledge that it may be years before women even try to enter those fields.

The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they weren't authorized to discuss the matter publicly.

Mabus on Monday made his position clear.

"I'm not going to ask for an exemption for the Marines, and it's not going to make them any less fighting effective," he said, adding that the Navy SEALs also will not seek any waivers. "I think they will be a stronger force because a more diverse force is a stronger force. And it will not make them any less lethal."

Mabus' comments angered Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif., who has asked Carter in a letter to demand Mabus' resignation because he "openly disrespected the Marine Corps as an institution, and he insulted the competency of Marines by disregarding their professional judgment, their combat experience and their quality of leadership."

Hunter, who served as a Marine in Iraq and Afghanistan, said Mabus' comments raise questions about whether he can be objective and continue to lead the Marine Corps. And he said Mabus should have no role in any decisions about women in the Marine Corps.

Mabus, however, told the City Club of Cleveland that the Marine study relied on averages -- such as the average woman can't carry as much or perform as quickly as a man.

"The other way to look at it is we're not looking for average," said Mabus. "There were women that met this standard, and a lot of the things there that women fell a little short in can be remedied by two things: training and leadership."

Under the current plan, the service chiefs will present their plans to the service secretaries, who will then forward recommendations to Carter. He will make the final decisions by the end of the year.

If Dunford does seek the exception, it puts the new Joint Chiefs chairman at odds with public statements by Carter asserting that anyone, regardless of gender, who meets the standards and requirements for a job should be allowed to do it.

Women make up less than 8 percent of the Marine Corps, the smallest percentage across the four active-duty services.

The services have been slowly integrating women into previously male-only roles, including as Army artillery officers and sailors on Navy submarines. Adding to the debate was the groundbreaking graduation last month of two women in the Army's grueling Ranger course.

In January 2013, then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta and Joint Chiefs Chairman Gen. Martin Dempsey signed an order wiping away generations of limits on women fighting for their country, ordering a quarter-million positions open regardless of gender. They called for sweeping reviews of the physical requirements for combat jobs and gave the military services until January 2016 to argue if any positions should remain closed to women."

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Scotsbloke

When I went to Uni in London in the early 80s there were a lot of Saffers and Zimbabweans and a few of the latter had served in their civil war.  I was particular friends with one who had been a Lieutenant in the Rhodesian army.  We played rugby together and are still friends.  We sometimes meet up in London to go to rugby matches.

 

We were also pals with someone who had been a police sergeant in Bulawayo during the strife, who had seen more action (not by choice) than my officer friend.

 

The three of us were having a drink one night.  I made a snide remark and the police sergeant said something like, "Say that again, MacDonald and I'll break your fecking legs".

 

My reply was simple: "I apologise, Stella - and I believe that you would".

 

Motto?  Don't judge a book by its cover.

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LechonBuddha

It’s all about satisfying the social engineers and accountants. The fact that we’ll spend an extra billion or two on a piece of military hardware to ensure it’s the best available, then turn around and willingly introduce personnel changes WE KNOW will result in less capable (Deadly) units is mind boggling. Yes, women can be capable in a very selective manner however, once this takes hold and women start to be routinely routed into combat positions the degradation will begin as run-of-of-the-mill female soldiers become the norm and standards are lowered to accommodate them. In my experience, women always leave men holding the bag. 

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Motto?  Don't judge a book by its cover.

 

True - No one is saying females can not serve in the military -  just that the Marines don't want them in 0311 MOS's (Basic Infantry Rifleman - which all male enlisted Marines start out as and retain as their primary MOS) or related ones.

 

My daughter weighs about 50 Kg and stands about 414 Cm - could probably do the same - to me included - but she is not the typical female

 

It has nothing to do with being able to kill another human - we all know how vicious women can be -  It's the confidence the men would have in a female to preform to the same standards -  they are looking to "review" / lower the standards - and we in America have plenty of experience when standards are lowered to achieve a desired political goal.

 

Look at the levels of competitiveness of our primary (grades 1 thru 12) educational systems have compared to the rest of the world.

 

Edit: I for one would NOT want to face an all female unit  :killself:

Edited by lamoe
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LechonBuddha

True, women can be extremely capable fighters, look at the Russian women during WWII, along with other examples. It’s more than just that though, along with the physical capabilities such as strength, endurance and mental toughness, there’s also lots of psychological issues that impact a mixed unit. I fear troops will spend more time training to overcome that than they will proper training. Also, if women in combat is such a good idea, why don’t they field all women combat units and let them go head-to-head with all male units? I’ll tell you why, because they’d be weaker, slower and less efficient. However, they think if they sprinkle them throughout the forces the cumulative affect will be less noticeable and therefore, an acceptable policy.  Problem is, those same women and men along with their missions will pay the price for this triumph of so-called equality.  I’m pretty sure the Marines will sit tight on their decision. If they are overruled there will be resignations. 

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Scotsbloke

My daughter weighs about 50 Kg and stands about 414 Cm 

Ach these delightful septics and their facility with numbers ;)

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Ach these delightful septics and their facility with numbers ;)

 

You're right the Kg are correct  -  should have been 139 Cm -

 

Fat fingered 162 inches  not 62 - I did know the nationality of who I was responding to so tried to not tax mental abilities.

 

5 foo 2 inches x 110 Lbs.

 

Been a cop for 15 years.

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Scotsbloke

My daughter weighs about 50 Kg and stands about 414 Cm - could probably do the same - to me included - but she is not the typical female

 

Ach these delightful septics and their facility with numbers ;)

 

You're right the Kg are correct  -  should have been 139 Cm -

 

Fat fingered 162 inches  not 62 - I did know the nationality of who I was responding to so tried to not tax mental abilities.

 

5 foo 2 inches x 110 Lbs.

And this, folk, is why Imperial units are always superior to Metric.  Lamy's daughter may have gained or lost a stone in the past fortnight.  He doesn't know and she hasn't a clue.

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Irenicus

 

 

Sound familiar? Want to achieve a predetermine goal? Change the requirements.

 

Marines must be a bunch of wimps.

 

The air force just announced that it will NOT be adjusting physical requirements for servicewomen seeking special operations positions.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/09/14/afsoc-physical-standards-wont-lowered-women/71878320/

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women don't belong on the front lines because there are too many way to young boys who are there because they think they are saving mom and their sisters from the commie rapist

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And this, folk, is why Imperial units are always superior to Metric.

 

Having lived and worked with both I suggest that there is no way imperial is superior to metric.

 

KonC

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Marines must be a bunch of wimps.

 

The air force just announced that it will NOT be adjusting physical requirements for servicewomen seeking special operations positions.

 

http://www.airforcetimes.com/story/military/2015/09/14/afsoc-physical-standards-wont-lowered-women/71878320/

 

 

It's not  the Marines - it's the Navy that wants to change the physical requirements - the Marines are simply saying - you want do what a man does? Do what a man does - we are firm believers in women's lib.. 

 

You may notice a difference in the expected results 

 

Air Force -  to reach top - 10 pull ups - 80 sit ups / crunches  - 2 rule run 13 1/2 min

                   Minimum          0                 50                                                 16:45

Marines  - to reach top - 20 pull ups  - 100 sit ups / crunches - 3 mile run 18 Min 

                 Minimum        15                   75                                                  22:10

 

Females

 

Air Force                         5 pull ups               75 sit ups               2 mile run  15 min 

 Minimum                          0                           50                                           19:45

 

Marine                            Hang 70 Sec        100 sit ups               3 mile run  21 min

Minimum                                  58 sec           75                                            25 min

 

Hang = Arms are flexed at the elbow, the chin is held above the bar and not touching it, and the body is motionless. At no time during the execution of this event can a Marine rest her chin on the bar.

 

 

 

Air Force Males    

                                                                     Run (2 miles) Run (1.5 mile)   Push-ups  Sit-ups   Pull-ups

 

Liberator (minimum graduation standard)      16:45 min.    11:57 min.         45               50         0

Thunderbolt (honor graduate standard)         14:15 min.      8:55 min.         62               70         4

Warhawk (extraordinary - highest standard) 13:30 min.       8:08 min.          75               80       10

 

Females  

Liberator (minimum graduation standard)         19:45 min. 13:56 min.          27                 50       0

Thunderbolt (honor graduate standard)             16:00 min. 11:33 min.         37                  60      2

Warhawk (extraordinary --highest standard)      15:00 min. 10:55 min.         40                  75       5

 

Note: the Marine term for a bent- knee sit up is a crunch.

 

Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Male Points

 

                      Pull-Ups Crunches 2 min limit            3-Mile Run

100                    20          100                                          18:00        

90                     18           90                                             19:40        

85                     17            85                                             20:30        

80                     16            80                                             21:20        

75                     15             75                                            22:10

 

Marine Corps Physical Fitness Test Points - Female Points

 

                       Flexed-Arm Hang                Crunches               3-Mile Run

100                        70 sec                                 100                             21:00        

90                           65 sec                                 90                                22:40        

80                            60 sec                                 80                               24:20         

76                            58 sec                                 76                               25:00        

 

The PFT above (Physical Fitness test) is only a part of the physical requirements to graduate boot camp

 

 

hysical Fitness Test/Combat Fitness Test

Recruits must all pass a physical fitness test and a combat fitness test before graduating.

Physical Fitness Test

The physical fitness test is a measure of a recruit's general physical fitness. It consists of a maximum set of pullups for male recruits and a flexed-arm hang for female recruits, two minutes of crunches, and a 3-mile run.

Combat Fitness Test

The CFT is designed to simulate a wide range of physical challenges one might face in combat and evaluates strength, stamina, agility and coordination. It consists of an 880-yard sprint, two minutes of 30-pound ammunition can lifts, and a timed 300-yard shuttle run in which recruits perform a series of combat-related tasks.

 The Crucible 

The final challenge recruits face is a grueling, 54-hour exercise known as the Crucible. The recruits must apply everything they have developed throughout recruit training, including physical strength and endurance, mental fortitude and moral character. The recruits must work together to overcome the many challenges of the Crucible. The last portion of the test is a 9-mile hike from the training area to the Iwo Jima flag raising statue at Peatross Parade Deck, where those who have completed the challenge are awarded the Eagle, Globe and Anchor and officially claim the title of U.S. Marine.

Edited by lamoe
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InternetTough

There is a website called "Women of the IDF". On it, it says that women are eliglible for only 89% of the jobs in the IDF.  The Israelis once tried for 100%, but it didn't work out.

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