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Depart the US with Philippines passport ... Enter US with US passport?

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SkyMan

IMHO, I believe what you are explaining has been over ruled or contradicted by this March 25, 2014 - Bureau of Immigration Commissioner Siegfred B. Mison's Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015. 

I'm sure the airport BI officials will be informed and knowledgeable of this Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015 and will be enforcing it eventually, because if they do not, the Philippines will be loosing revenue and you all know it's all about money with the Philippine Government!

I just wouldn't want to be the one to get caught in trying to circumvent their immigration laws, rules and regulations! :idontknow:   

Actually that Operations Order is QUITE interesting.  First, it does nothing to refute Lee's correct claim that obtaining another countries citz does not necessarily cause them to lose their RP citz because this OO only applies to persons who have done the RA 9225 business whether they needed it or not.  But I already knew that.  The more interesting thing is that if you had done RA 9225 you need to prove this upon entering the country and the first method of proving you have reacquired your citz is to simple show a valid RP passport.  What this means is that if you acquire another countries citz and at that time your RP pp is not invalidated you have not lost your RP citz but in fact have merely become dual citz and no BS RA 9225 needed.

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NOSOCALPINOY
Yes it's just another way the Philippine to generate revenue and increase the Philippine voting count during elections and the sale of real estate and venture capital to add to the economy of the Philippines. 

This is what IMHO the way the two passport rule apply for a legal dual citizen. 

Before this RA9225 was introduced and implemented, a former Filipino citizen who was naturalized and became a U.S. citizen lost his/her rights as a Filipino citizen and could only use their newly acquired U.S. passport thus making them a tourist coming and going  to any country. 

 

Ever since these two Republic Acts were implemented, RA6768 and RA9225, made it a very convenient avenue for former Filipino citizens who have reacquire their Philippine citizenship for whatever the reasons, but BI rules and regulations were put in place also to restrict others from circumventing those rules and regualtions, thus came the commissioner's Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015, which simply states: 

 

To be consistent with the spirit and intent of the said Act and in order to extend the full benefits to those who availed thereof, there is a need to streamline the rules and regulations implementing Republic Act No. 9225, particularly in the immigration processing at the international ports of entry and exit of passengers who retained or re-acquired Philippine Citizenship under Republic Act No. 9225

 

Administrative Order No. 91, Section 1, issued on 12 January 2004, designated the Bureau of Immigration as the implementing agency of the Republic Act No. 9225.

By authority of Section 2 of the same Administrative Order, the following rules and guidelines are hereby ordered:

Section 1. Proof of Retention or Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship

For purpose of this Operations Order, the following shall be considered as substantial proof of retention or re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship:

1.Valid Philippine passport

2.Original copy of Identification Certificate aka the "IC" letter issued either by the Bureau of Immigration (BI) or Foreign Service Posts of the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) 

3.Original Copy of the Certificate of Retention/ Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship (CRPC) issued by the BI

 

So even with a U.S. and valid Philippine passport, item #s 1 and 2 must be met to use the two passport rule under the Commissioner's

If not meeting those requirements, one can only use their U.S. passport using only the BB Program. Using one's U.S, and Philippine passport and have not gone through the RA9225 process would be circumventing this Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015, thus fraudulently portraying oneself as a dual citizen illegally, therefore committing a fraudulent act in the Philippines with the BI. Is it worth taking that chance just to bypass the RA9225 process?

Edited by NOSOCALPINOY

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SkyMan

 

 

So even with a U.S. and valid Philippine passport, item #s 1 and 2 must be met to use the two passport rule under the Commissioner's Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015.
Not corrent:

 

For purpose of this Operations Order, the following shall be considered as substantial proof of retention or re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship: 1.Valid Philippine passport or
Meaning that if you have a valid RP passport you are an RP citz.  You don't need 1 and 2, 1 is enough.

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NOSOCALPINOY

Not corrent:

 

Meaning that if you have a valid RP passport you are an RP citz.  You don't need 1 and 2, 1 is enough.

 

With just a U.S. passport and valid RP passport alone is not enough proof one is legally a dual citizen without an Identification certificate letter aka the IC letter issued when one has gone through the RA9225 process or a Certificate of Retention/ Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship (CRPC)

 

Section 1. Proof of Retention or Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship 
For purpose of this Operations Order, the following shall be considered as substantial proof of retention or re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship:
1.Valid Philippine passport
2.Original copy of Identification Certificate aka the "IC" letter issued either by the Bureau of Immigration (BI) or Foreign Service Posts of the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) or
3.Original Copy of the Certificate of Retention/ Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship (CRPC) issued by the BI.
 
This is about the RA9225 process and following the Commissioner's rules and guidelines under Operations Order NO. SBM 2014-015. 
Edited by NOSOCALPINOY

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SkyMan

Why would you misquote the OO after correctly quoting it and then go back to incorrectly edit your previous post in order to prove an incorrect point?

 

Here's the unaltered excerpt from  http://www.immigration.gov.ph/images/Issuances/2014/march/sbm%202014-015.pdf


Section 1. Proof of Retention or Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship. – For purpose of this Operations Order, the following shall be considered as substantial proof of retention or re-acquisition of Philippine citizenship:
 
1.  Valid Philippine passport; or
2.  Original copy of Identification Certificate (IC) issued either by the Bureau of Immigration or Foreign Service Posts of the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA); or
3.  Original copy of the Certificate of Retention/Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship (CRPC) issued by the BI.
 

The "or"s after 1 and 2 indicated only one of the the three is required. Most English speakers understand this.  Ergo, if you have a valid RP passport you need nothing else.

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NOSOCALPINOY

It's up to anyone's interpretation what is read on here, but I'm just explaining what we personally experienced when my wife went through the RA9225 process at the San Francisco Philippine Consulate as for my wife becoming a dual citizen and then upon returning to the Philippines abiding by the Commissioner's Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015 rules and guidelines.

While just on vacation in California a few yrs ago, my wife only had her U.S. passport and her Identification Certificate (IC) letter after obtaining her dual citizenship, because we didn't have the time to apply for her Philippine passport before our returning to the Philippines.

Here's the rules and guidelines upon entering the Philippines as per the Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015:

 
Section 1. Proof of Retention or Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship
 
For purpose of this Operations Order, the following shall be considered as substantial proof of retention or re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship:
 
1.Valid Philippine passport; or
2.Original copy of Identification Certificate issued either by the Bureau of Immigration (BI) or Foreign Service Posts of the Department of Foreign Affairs (DFA) ; or
3.Original Copy of the Certificate of Retention/ Re-acquisition of Philippine Citizenship (CRPC) issued by the BI

 

Section 2. Immigration Processing During Arrival
 
1. Upon arrival at any international port of entry in the Philippines, a passenger who retained or re-acquired Philippine citizenship under Republic Act No. 9225 shall present to the Immigration Officer during immigration primary inspection both his/ her valid foreign passport and any of the substantial proof of Philippine Citizenship enumerated in Section 1 hereof.
 
2. Upon determination of the validity of the presented proof of Philippine citizenship, such passenger shall be admitted for an indefinite period of authorize stay. The Immigration Officer shall affix the “Arrival” stamp on the passenger’s foreign passport and indicate in the provision for “authorized Stay” therein the presented proof Philippine citizenship as follows:
 
a.“PP” – for valid Philippine passport; or
b.“RA 9225”- for IC or CRPC.
 
IMHO, if one has not obtained dual citizenship under RA9225, he/she is not a legal dual citizen, because he/she does not have their Identification Certificate (IC) letter showing proof they went through the RA9225 process and this is what this topic is all about, the two passport rule of thumb arriving and departing the Philippines under this Operations Order NO. SBM-2014-015.
 
BTW, after becoming a dual citizen under RA9225 and one needs to apply for a new Philippine passport, questions are asked on the  application form:
Does the applicant have a foreign passport?
How was citizenship acquired?  RA9225?
 

 

Edited by NOSOCALPINOY

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SkyMan

Unfortunately nothing you post is really believable after having altered documents to fit your agenda whatever that is.  Credibility and face lost.  I maintain that RA 9225 is only necessary in the case where someone has lost their RP citz which doesn't happen when acquiring US citz.  Such a person could simply continue to keep their RP pp current and be a dual citz.  It may have been at the time when your wife became a US citz, she lost her RP citz, but that's no longer the case and RA 9225 is no longer of value to pinoy acquiring US citz.  RA 9225 should also not be referred to as acquiring dual citz as it does not necessarily provide that.  If a pinoy acquires citz for a country that does not allow dual citz, they can use RA 9225 to regain their RP citz but by the law of the other country they then lose that country's citz, the RA not having any legal basis in the other country.

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Monsoon
which doesn't happen when acquiring US citz.

 

You are wrong about that. 

 

Here is an excerpt from the Philippine consulate in Chicago:

 

I still have a valid Philippine passport, which I renewed before I got naturalized as a US citizen.  Now that I have reacquired my Philippine citizenship, can I still use this passport?

No you can not.   The moment you were naturalized as a US citizen, you have relinquished all your rights and privileges as a Philippine citizen, which includes the possession of a Philippine passport.  As such, your Philippine passport is no longer valid.   Now that you have reacquired your Philippine citizenship, you may now apply for a new Philippine passport.

 

 

And a little bit of my own personal experience with something:

 

When I did my most recent residency visa at the Philippine consulate in LA, they phoned me to ask me if my wife was 'still a Philippine citizen?' 

 

They had a copy and original of her NSO birth certificate and valid Philippine passport (i'm sure they have access to their own database as well where they could confirm that it was valid). 

So why would he ask me that question? 

 

He then asked me what type of visa my wife was on to be in the US? I assumed he knew she was in the US because her signature on documents was notorized by a notary in NV. When I told him a B1/B2 visa he asked me to email him a scan of her visa. 

 

Seems to me he was wanting to make sure she hadn't acquired US citizenship and in which case would need to reacquire her Philippine citizenship in order to sponsor me for such a visa. 

 

That was my deduction anyway. 

 

If you lose your citizenship then you certainly can't consider a passport from that country to be valid, despite what the expiration date says. 

 

The naturalization oath of allegiance to the United States of America makes it pretty clear that you are: 

 

 
Naturalization Oath of Allegiance to the United States of America

Oath

"I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty, of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God."

Edited by Monsoon
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NOSOCALPINOY

 

Here is an excerpt from the Philippine consulate in Chicago:

 

I still have a valid Philippine passport, which I renewed before I got naturalized as a US citizen.  Now that I have reacquired my Philippine citizenship, can I still use this passport?

No you can not.   The moment you were naturalized as a US citizen, you have relinquished all your rights and privileges as a Philippine citizen, which includes the possession of a Philippine passport.  As such, your Philippine passport is no longer valid.   Now that you have reacquired your Philippine citizenship, you may now apply for a new Philippine passport.

 

 

 

 

Thanks Monsoon, 

For your own personal experience and the info you provided here which I believe backed up my own post and personal experience fore which this topic can be now laid to rest since I'm certain you and I convinced everyone reading this topic of all the facts that answered all the doubts in everyone's mind except for SkyMan  who has been trying to discredit me and you of what our personal experiences were and of our own interpretation of this topic at hand. With our personal experiences and the facts provided, I hope SkyMan can now be a believer of what we just provided here and end this back and forth dialog about who's right or wrong, because IMHO, we have already provided all of the correct answers here and didn't dwell on the two letters OR

Edited by NOSOCALPINOY

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SkyMan
No you can not.   The moment you were naturalized as a US citizen, you have relinquished all your rights and privileges as a Philippine citizen, which includes the possession of a Philippine passport.  As such, your Philippine passport is no longer valid.   Now that you have reacquired your Philippine citizenship, you may now apply for a new Philippine passport.

Too bad they didn't provide any legal reference for this and only posted their opinion.  This was true when the US didn't allow dual citz but both the US and RP allow such.

 

 

And a little bit of my own personal experience with something:   When I did my most recent residency visa at the Philippine consulate in LA, they phoned me to ask me if my wife was 'still a Philippine citizen?'    They had a copy and original of her NSO birth certificate and valid Philippine passport (i'm sure they have access to their own database as well where they could confirm that it was valid).  So why would he ask me that question? 
Of course they were trying to find out if she had gained US citz so they could claim (as above) she needed to reacquire something she still had.  

 

Thanks Monsoon, 

For your own personal experience and the info you provided here which I believe backed up my own post and personal experience fore which this topic can be now laid to rest since I'm certain you and I convinced everyone reading this topic of all the facts that answered all the doubts in everyone's mind except for SkyMan  who has been trying to discredit me and you of what our personal experiences were and of our own interpretation of this topic at hand. With our personal experiences and the facts provided, I hope SkyMan can now be a believer of what we just provided here and end this back and forth dialog about who's right or wrong, because IMHO, we have already provided all of the correct answers here and didn't dwell on the two letters OR

You discredited yourself by altering a quote from another document to serve your purpose.

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Monsoon
Too bad they didn't provide any legal reference for this and only posted their opinion.  This was true when the US didn't allow dual citz but both the US and RP allow such.

 

Whether or not an alien loses foreign citizenship upon becoming a US citizen will be determined by the laws of the country of foreign citizenship. In this case the Philippines has a process for reacquiring citizenship. You might want to cite for your own benefit the laws of the Philippines which state that its citizens automatically retain their citizenship upon taking an oath or allegiance to another nation. 

 

Allowing dual citizenship and citizenship retention upon allegiance to another nation are two separate issues. How the US treats dual citizenship has no bearing on whether or not Filipinos automatically retain their citizenship. Simply saying "because the US and Philippines allow dual citizenship therefore Filipinos do not lose their citizenship when becoming naturalized US citizens." is not a legal basis. 

Edited by Monsoon
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SkyMan

Whether or not an alien loses foreign citizenship upon becoming a US citizen will be determined by the laws of the country of foreign citizenship. In this case the Philippines has a process for reacquiring citizenship. You might want to cite for your own benefit the laws of the Philippines which state that its citizens automatically retain their citizenship upon taking an oath or allegiance to another nation.

Well, I don't think countries fill their law books with all of the possible ways a person would not lose their citz and only pass how a person does lose it.  An extreme nanny state might but I don't think so.

 

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Monsoon

Well, I don't think countries fill their law books with all of the possible ways a person would not lose their citz and only pass how a person does lose it. An extreme nanny state might but I don't think so.

 

Dual citizenship is a complicated legal issue that has been addressed by legislation, administrative rules and court rulings.

 

Lucky for you your misunderstanding of this subject won't effect you, since you are not a Filipino who became a naturalized U.S. citizen

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NOSOCALPINOY
The writing has been on the wall and posted several times that answers the issue if an Philippine passport is still valid after going through the RA9225 dual citizenship process even though it has been stated that a former Philippine citizen do not lose their Philippine citizenship when naturalized as an American citizen under RA9225, but that statement wasn't even backed up by the person who made that comment and did not provide any Philippine or U.S. laws as a reference.  

 

This was Monsoon's OP and was probably the comments coming from an immigration attorney at the mentioned Philippine consulate in Chicago, but did not provide a reference to substantiate his remarks, but only expressing it verbally to the listener as only hearsay.

Here is an excerpt from the Philippine consulate in Chicago:

 

I still have a valid Philippine passport, which I renewed before I got naturalized as a US citizen. Now that I have reacquired my Philippine citizenship, can I still use this passport?

No you can not. The moment you were naturalized as a US citizen, you have relinquished all your rights and privileges as a Philippine citizen, which includes the possession of a Philippine passport.  As such, your Philippine passport is no longer valid. Now that you have reacquired your Philippine citizenship, you may now apply for a new Philippine passport 

 

There's nothing difficult and or complicated about  comprehending what was written above. 

So why the continued dialog about this topic?  Hasn't all of the previous post satisfactorily answered the original question in one's mind's eye for all intents and purposes for now, until someone can provide the actual links and or references to substantiate comments made above.

In have nothing more to add to this topic. I've written all what I needed to explain to get my point across.  

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cebulover2000

This subject has been discussed many times and is always interesting. I agree with Lee and SkyMan in the interpretation of the dual citizenship act of 2004, however, reality and interpretation of said act is another story. Entering the Philippines is only one part of the story, my wife became Canadian citizen 2 years ago and she entered the Philippines 2 times after that, one time with 2 valid passports, the other time only showing the valid Canadian passport, both time she got the PP stamp into her Canadian passport.

BUT I believe that the tolerance levels would change if she would challenge her rights, for example if she would run for office in the Philippines.

 

Therefore she applied and received her dual citizenship last week at the RP consulate in Vancouver. Funny enough they even tried to drag our son through the process and collect another fee - but the little man never lost his RP citizenship since he became dual citizen by birth while his mom was still sole RP citizen.

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