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50 Owners of Zongshen 'RX3' in Philippines


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Cipro

It is a water-cooled 250cc engine so will be heavier than an air-cooled engine of same capacity, due water jacket, twin radiators, twin electric fans and the weight of the water!

 

This is simply not true. Water cooled motorcycles are lighter, apples to apples, than air cooled ones. The water can more effectively replace thermal mass that's required, allowing less aluminum to be used in the casting, the water jacket can be structural unlike cooling fins, which also allows material to be removed, and so on. Overall a study done by Honda when water cooling was first being adapted to MX machines showed no net weight gain.

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i know david you love chinese products whether it's there tablets, there electric motorcycles or now there gas motorcycles but us in the real world know that most of there  stuff is crap especially s

Regarding the KLR650  as compared to the RX3, adding 11% to the curb weight and 260% to the displacement doesn't seem like a bad thing. In fact if one offered that tradeoff as an option to RX3 owners

i just cant help myself! i just love dual sport (and motard) bikes! i really like the look of the zongshen but through experience doubt the china bikes durability until they are long proven. here in

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SkyMan

Billy, I am sure you are well aware, that there are differences between manufacturers in the Western world and there are indeed differences between manufacturers in China. All the major car manufacturers are producing cars in China, via a Chinese 'partner' company. You think these famous Brand Car Markers would allow their reputation to get a bad reputation if the Chinese version was of lower build and quality control as well as lower price than their Western World version?

I've explained this before but to put it simply there's a massive difference between Chinese manufactured parts to US standards and those manufactured to Chinese standards.
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Cipro

I've explained this before but to put it simply there's a massive difference between Chinese manufactured parts to US standards and those manufactured to Chinese standards.

 

The best summary I've read on this was simply that the Chinese can manufacture to hit a wide range of price points with commensurate quality. The RX3 is inexpensive in terms of initial cost - do the math. 

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davedude

For off road I always just used a KX, CR, etc., and had street bikes for the street. For tooling around PH, a KLR650 would be my top pick, if I wanted something for offroad, the older BMW G450X or similar would be ideal. 

I rode a YZ250 for years offroad, Sold it a couple years ago, Factory stage two motor,  compression bumped up so high I could only run 108 octane race gas in it. Great bike but seat height was too high. I like old air cooled late 70's yamaha two-stroke dual sports for offroad now. Evil tork motors in those things. Evil. Seat height is perfect and they are hard to kill. Infinitly rebuildable.

I would have to look around in the PH some and see what's available there for a road bike.

All the best,

 

Dave Dude

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David_LivinginTalisay

The best summary I've read on this was simply that the Chinese can manufacture to hit a wide range of price points with commensurate quality.

The RX3 is inexpensive in terms of initial cost - do the math. 

 

The RX3 with its ZS177MM 250cc OHC 4 Valve water-cooled engine, is more expensive than for example the ZS169MM engine

 

cantonfair2010040.jpg

 

NC250 engine by the European design company responsible for the design, development, just the initial development costs, Zongshen Group

has paid 1.5 million euros, and even post-mold, and so comprehensive cost an estimated total development cost of more than thirty million

yuan , the entire development process, from the discussion, project, development, testing, mold to be able to mass production, reportedly

took more than five years.

 

Meanwhile, the mass production of the NC250 horsepower output is reduced to only about 19kw, in order to improve durability.

The original design of the NC250, the maximum power output can easily reach 23kw or more.

 

 

Some websites for ZS177MM engine, give ridicules quotes on Shipping Cost since they give Approx Weight: 500 g

 

Package weight 50Kg is more like it;-

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/zongshen-250cc-water-cooled-engine-1-cylinder-4-stroke-17HP-NC250-engine-with-balance-shaft/468989135.html

ZS177MM 250cc OHC 4 Valve water-cooled engine

zongshen-250cc-water-cooled-engine-1-cyl

Price: US $777.77 / piece

Discount Price: US $738.88 / piece 2 days left

Shipping:US $388.67 to Philippines via EMCPackage Weight: 50.000kg (110.23lb.)

Total Price: US $1,127.55

Net Weight (kg):             31

Max.Power (kw/r/min):    19/9000

Max.Torque(N.m/r/min):  23/7000

Compression Ratio:        11.6:1

 

 

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/zongshen-250cc-water-cooled-engine-1-cylinder-4-stroke-17HP-NC250-engine-with-balance-shaft/468987624.html

 

387416823_976.jpg 

 

Price: US $399.99 / piece

Discount Price: US $379.99 / piece  2 days left

Shipping:US $351.02 to Philippines via EMCPackage Weight: 45.000kg (99.21lb.)

Total Price: US $731.01

Net Weight (kg):             31 

Max.Power (kw/r/min):    11.5/7000 

Max.Torque(N.m/r/min): 19.0/5000 

Compression Ratio:       10.5:1

 

 

T1Kz0pXzJdXXXIdnjb-146-58.png

TB1euh3FVXXXXXIXVXXXXXXXXXX_!!0-item_pic

¥ 22800.00

22,800 Chinese Yuan equals 160,283.51 Philippine Peso (plus cost of shipping etc)
ie less than I paid for my Yamaha XT225 'Serow' in December 2007
 
The reason the RX3 only costs PHP130,000 from Motorstar is
i) it is standard Carb version not EFI,
ii) Shipped under MVDP
 
This THREAD was meant to announce that the Zongshen Motorcycle RX 3 Ultimate limited edition ZS250GY-3 is becoming available in Cebu via Motorstar.
 
 
I posted in many other threads on the merits of the ZS177MM 250cc OHC 4 Valve water-cooled engine
 
 
 
 
 
 
Want a Chinese CRF250 clone
 
 
Want something smaller and cheaper:-
 

They say they will be getting stocks of 150cc version MC150GY, Cash List Price is Php54,000 in Cebu

 

020024344_mc150gy.jpg

Got a phone call from the RACAL Distributor (on the Cebu South Road before Minglanilla District Hospital (N10 15 06.8 E123 48 23.2) nafter Natcco ATM and before Belvic Auto Sales.

 

They now have the MC150GY in stock now Php54,000 RRP Cash

 

It has the same 19" Front and 16" Rear chromed steel Rims as the MC125GY

Edited by David_LivinginTalisay
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David_LivinginTalisay

This is simply not true. Water cooled motorcycles are lighter, apples to apples, than air cooled ones. The water can more effectively replace thermal mass that's required, allowing less aluminum to be used in the casting, the water jacket can be structural unlike cooling fins, which also allows material to be removed, and so on. Overall a study done by Honda when water cooling was first being adapted to MX machines showed no net weight gain.

 

Water is 1gm per 1cc, so 1,500cc of water weighs 1.5Kg

 

Then there is the additional weight of the radiators that the water must flow through and the water pump.  

 

I am skeptical that ALL the water cooling 'gear' in addition to the engine 'water jacket' and pump, does NOT add additional weight to air cooled engine.

 

No need to convince me on benefits of keeping the engine at optimum temperature with quick warm up and not overheating (although fully synthetic oils do a better job of protecting high performance engines at higher temperatures).

 

I do need some convincing however, that all that the additional cost (and more things, like water pump, to go wrong), has any real significant advantages for non racing engines over air/oil cooled with radiators (or oil in frame) to improve the oil cooling (once thermostat allows it to flow through)?

 

See http://www.advrider.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509643

 

http://spectator.org/articles/58066/air-cooled-vs-water-cooled

protofit1.jpg

 

When stopped at traffic lights, after crossing to Mactan over old bridge (having traveled 22Km or so from Lawa-an 1, Talisay City), I can feel the heat coming off my  XT225.  I considered fitting such Oil Cooler Kit (as shown above), but an electric Fan, to blow cool air, might be required when stationary.  

 

I just hit the engine kill now (+ Mobil 1 Racing oil),  as the Police can make one wait 3-4 minutes!

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thebob

 

 

I do need some convincing however, that all that the additional cost (and more things, like water pump, to go wrong), has any real significant advantages for non racing engines over air/oil cooled with radiators (or oil in frame) to improve the oil cooling (once thermostat allows it to flow through)?

 

It's chalk and cheese because of the difference in thermal expansion in an air cooled engine against a liquid cooled one. Air is actually a good insulator so it is a marginal cooling medium and it has a very low heat capacity. Air cooled engines need to have much wider clearances because they run so much hotter.

 

If you want a fast air cooled engine, run it on alcohol. You need much bigger jets but it burns much cooler than gasoline.

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i just cant help myself! i just love dual sport (and motard) bikes! i really like the look of the zongshen but through experience doubt the china bikes durability until they are long proven.

here in the Philippines I specialize in one model only- the yamaha xt660x (or xtx660). its fuel injected, has a long engine life span with long maintenance intervals and is perfect for local conditiions, including long distance touring.

Ive owned 6 of these bikes in the Philippines and still own 2. (I'm selling one, but will keep the other).

the xtx is a motard version of the xtr (xtr having 21" front wheel and longer front forks).

they sport an italian built engine and the bike is totally european built from the brembo brakes, piaoli forks and quality electronics.

fuel injection is easily managed via a digital dashboard with on screen CO settings and easy to access fault diagnosis.

for me these are the best bikes for daily commuting throughout the city or smashing through cebu's transcentral highway, toying with cruisers and sports bikes with ease.

I have owned chinese bikes when first arriving in the Philippines 10yrs ago, and the loncin was the most durable of the lot. I would consider a chinese dual sport but maybe in a few years when they are more tested with some good feed back.

I also have a ducati 1200 multistrada (modded to a hyperstrada), but prefer the xtx over it anyday!

dual sports and motards! got to love em!

 

DSC04919xxx_zps55336900.jpg

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Cipro

Water is 1gm per 1cc, so 1,500cc of water weighs 1.5Kg

 

Then there is the additional weight of the radiators that the water must flow through and the water pump.  

 

I am skeptical that ALL the water cooling 'gear' in addition to the engine 'water jacket' and pump, does NOT add additional weight to air cooled engine.

 

You have to make sure you're comparing apples to apples. 

 

In many cases the designers CHOOSE to add some mass in the form of additional water capacity to a water cooled engine to make it more forgiving of idling and so on, but for engines of the same or similar output, displacement, and airflow requirements water cooling (as found by numerous engineering studies 20 years ago) didn't add weight to the powerplant per se. 

 

Also it's often the case that air cooled engines will have a lower output than the same sized liquid cooled engine, which reduces the heat and other loads the bike has to handle, allowing it to be lighter. Using a smaller liquid cooled engine of similar output would allow a similar result.  

 

In the case of motocrossers where the comparison was made at the time to address perceived weight issues, I was a little surprised at the time as well to discover that according to the guys who engineer this stuff the net effect was essentially no additional weight overall. It should be noted that water cooling does not intrinsically require things like cooling fans any more than air cooling or oil cooling does. 

 

What is left is the mass of the engine, and some of the characteristics of water cooling (stable operating temp, etc) actually (IIRC) allowed weight to be shaved from surprising places, like lighter pistons, which allowed light con rods, which allowed lighter crankshafts, which reduced the load on the crankcase, and so on. Then there was the cylinder itself, which could be made much slimmer and lighter. 

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davedude

When stopped at traffic lights, after crossing to Mactan over old bridge (having traveled 22Km or so from Lawa-an 1, Talisay City), I can feel the heat coming off my XT225. I considered fitting such Oil Cooler Kit (as shown above), but an electric Fan, to blow cool air, might be required when stationary. I just hit the engine kill now (+ Mobil 1 Racing oil), as the Police can make one wait 3-4 minutes!

 

 

I forgot to mention, part of the BEET kit I bought for my Sherpa was-----yes, you guessed it------an oil cooler! Highly recommend you do that Dave.

 

Couple pics attached.

 

All the best

 

Dave Dude

post-16091-0-54098200-1406805451_thumb.jpg

post-16091-0-26009000-1406805751_thumb.jpg

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David_LivinginTalisay

I forgot to mention, part of the BEET kit I bought for my Sherpa was-----yes, you guessed it------an oil cooler! Highly recommend you do that Dave.

 

Couple pics attached.

 

post-16091-0-54098200-1406805451.jpg

 

All the best

 

Dave Dude

 

DaveDude,

 

Looking at that Oil Cooler on your SHERPA, could not help wondering why you had to route the hoses to the cooler over the exhaust down pipe?

 

Did you not have the clearance, to go under the down pipe, as it not only looks a lot 'neater', but potentially adds more 'protection' against damage to those oil lines, in the event of a spill, or cloat?

 

post-198-0-99802300-1406810591_thumb.jpg

Edited by David_LivinginTalisay
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David_LivinginTalisay

i just cant help myself! i just love dual sport (and motard) bikes! i really like the look of the zongshen but through experience doubt the china bikes durability until they are long proven.

here in the Philippines I specialize in one model only- the yamaha xt660x (or xtx660). its fuel injected, has a long engine life span with long maintenance intervals and is perfect for local conditiions, including long distance touring.

Ive owned 6 of these bikes in the Philippines and still own 2. (I'm selling one, but will keep the other).

the xtx is a motard version of the xtr (xtr having 21" front wheel and longer front forks).

they sport an italian built engine and the bike is totally european built from the brembo brakes, piaoli forks and quality electronics.

fuel injection is easily managed via a digital dashboard with on screen CO settings and easy to access fault diagnosis.

for me these are the best bikes for daily commuting throughout the city or smashing through cebu's transcentral highway, toying with cruisers and sports bikes with ease.

I have owned chinese bikes when first arriving in the Philippines 10yrs ago, and the loncin was the most durable of the lot. I would consider a chinese dual sport but maybe in a few years when they are more tested with some good feed back.

I also have a ducati 1200 multistrada (modded to a hyperstrada), but prefer the xtx over it anyday!

dual sports and motards! got to love em!

 

DSC04919xxx_zps55336900.jpg

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_XT660R

 

The Yamaha XT660 is dual-purpose on/off road motorcycles released by Yamaha Motors as a replacement for the XT600.

It is a development of the original XT series ('X' stands for CROSS, 'T' for TRAIL), a line of motorcycles inspired by those used on the Paris Dakar rally. The first XT was released in 1976.

A five-valve version of the 660 cc engine was used in a number of MZ (MuZ) motorcycles, including the MZ Skorpion, Baghira and Mastiff.

Specifications[edit]
  • Engine

Engine Type- Liquid-cooled, 4-stroke, SOHC 4-valve, single

Displacement- 660 cc

Bore x Stroke- 100.0 x 84.0 mm

Compression Ratio- 10.0 : 1

Lubrication System- Dry sump

Fuel Management- Electronic fuel injection

Ignition- TCI

Starter System- Electric

Fuel Tank Capacity- 15 L

Final Transmission- Chain drive

Transmission- 5-speed

  • Dimensions

Length- 2240 mm

Width- 845 mm

Height- 1230 mm

Seat Height- 865 mm

Wheelbase- 1505 mm

Ground Clearance- 210 mm

Wet Weight- 181 kg with 15 litres of fuel

  • Chassis

Suspension Front- Telescopic fork

Suspension Rear- Monocross

Brakes Front- Single disc

Brakes Rear- Single disc

  • Tires XT660R/Z

Tire Front- 90/90-21 M/C

Tire Rear- 130/80-17 M/C

  • Tires XT660X

Tire Front- 120/70R 17M/C

Tire Rear- 160/60R 17M/C

Two other versions of this motorcycle are being produced alongside the XT660R – the XT660X, a more street-oriented supermoto version,

and the XT660Z Ténéré, an adventure touring version,. All versions utilise the same engine and share some chassis components.

External links[edit]

 

 

With my short legs, I won't be able to touch the ground on an XT660X, with it having a seat height of 865 mm (34")!

 

The Yamaha XT660Z Ténéré is even worse, being 895 mm (35.2")!

 

800px-Yamaha_XT660Z_Tenere_2007TMS.jpg

Edited by David_LivinginTalisay
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Barryrio

Just a follow up on an earlier posting I made regarding Chinese bikes, as the topic appears to have surfaced again. My posting read:

 

(Just to add my two-cent's worth. I have owned a Motostar 155-X with the water-cooled engine, Showa suspension, etc. for 15 months now. Contrary to the earlier statements, it has not fallen apart, nor has it developed a multitude of problems. Build quality is in fact much better than the XR-200 I owned previously, as is the quality of fittings, such as hinged gear lever, brake and clutch with snap-off joints in case of a fall and stainless bars. The bike is my everyday run-around and has also done several runs right round the island and up to Bantayan and Dumaguete. I also own a Yamaha Super Tenere 1200, the latest in a long list of large-capacity bikes that have passed through my hands, but if I was restricted to just one, the 155-X would be the keeper. Plus its extremely frugal on gasoline. Maybe I was just lucky, but it was a great buy.)

 

I still stand by that statement, though in fairness I have found this particular model's weak point, which I suspect is true of most of its Chinese siblings. Spare parts. I also have an XR-125, and spares for that are readily available, or if not available over the counter, take very little time to source. The situation with the Motorstar (Zongshen) is somewhat different. Consumables such as chains and sprockets are not a problem, but anything else can involve long delays. I knocked off a registration plate light fitment and tried ordering a replacement from the Carcar branch. never turned up. More recently, the bike needed a replacement thermostat. Fortunately the local dealership (now in Dumaguete) managed an effective temporary fix but the new part will take up to two months to arrive, which is less than satisfactory. The actual staff at the dealership are very good and try their best, but they can't produce something that simply isn't there.

In every other respect, all the statements in my OP still stand. The build quality and thought that's gone into it exceeds the XR-125 (and 200). Both bikes are parked side by side and the attention to detail on the Motorstar becomes more obvious. However, the parts side of things leaves much to be desired!!!

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not wrong David regarding the seat height.

One xtx I had to modify for a lady customer from Austria who wanted it at 31" (or 790mm). I beefed up the front suspension with spacers and dropped them by 1.5", fitted some risers to the bars  then made up lowering links for the rear.

 

mate I'll create a new thread specifically for the xt models. im sure your info will be most valuable there!

these are a classic bike and here the serow is so well sought after and cherished by many.

 

cheers...

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davedude

 

DaveDude,

 

Looking at that Oil Cooler on your SHERPA, could not help wondering why you had to route the hoses to the cooler over the exhaust down pipe?

 

Did you not have the clearance, to go under the down pipe, as it not only looks a lot 'neater', but potentially adds more 'protection' against damage to those oil lines, in the event of a spill, or cloat?

 

Good idea Dave, I'll have a lookie see at it.

 

Dave Dude

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