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Vietnam War: Facts, Stats & Myths Credit: Capt. Marshal Hanson, USNR (Ret.) and Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source 9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vie

you won't be trolling the vets forum anymore

This discussion is getting a bit twisted ,   I posted the export as a great point of interest, in my opinion. All service personnel serve an active role in any conflict, simply by the nature of the

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Paul

 

 

The American military was not defeated in Vietnam.

 

 

One thing not addressed here, is the amount of ordinance dropped on Cambodia, Vietnam's neighboring country. Was that a myth? Or, was it real?

While I have not seen these atrocities first hand, I have heard of them, and have seen images of children, adults, and animals, that have mistakenly walked on mines that are in the ground. Countless ordinance is still in the ground here today, patiently waiting for the next victim. 

 

So, do not tell me that any nation lost, or won that war. Innocents, for God's sake, are the ones who lost it, and are still losing it every year right in this country. To see those images, to read those stories, it rips my heart out of my chest. 

 

Did you (collective) know that there are people working here still, every day, actively seeking mines and other ordinance, in order to remove it all? How many decades ago was the Vietnam War? 

 

Don't get me wrong. I am not liberal. I am not anti-USA. I would die before I would ever betray my country or anything that could harm it. I would kill anyone who were in the act of trying to do so.

 

But, I am for the people. I am for the children. I am for those who are dying every year - I think an estimated 200 to 300 people die per year in Cambodia, due to stepping on, or in some other way, causing ordinance in the ground to explode. To me, that is 200 to 300 too fecking many. Some of these horrible events happen right here in the very province where I am living - Battambang. The sad part is, there is nothing I can do about it.  

 

So, while we are discussing myths and truths about a fecking war - yet another one that should never have occurred, let's make sure we include those victims of today, who are still dying because of stupid bombing campaigns, in a fecked up war that I still have no idea as to why it even occurred. At this point, I really don't care. 

 

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cambodian-land-mine-victim-20863233.jpg

 

land_mine_soccer2309.jpg

 

cambodia-colbourne1.jpg

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Mikala

I remember seeing plenty of crippled people when I was in Cambodia Paul, but I assumed it was because of the Khmer landmines or something. I've seen programs on BBC about cleaning up ordnance in Vietnam leftover from the war. My wonder is why there would be all that stuff in Cambodia if the war was being fought in Vietnam? Did the US military drop stuff by mistake? Were the Vietnamese operating out of Cambodia?

 

Please excuse my ignorance.

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Paul

I remember seeing plenty of crippled people when I was in Cambodia Paul, but I assumed it was because of the Khmer landmines or something. I've seen programs on BBC about cleaning up ordnance in Vietnam leftover from the war. My wonder is why there would be all that stuff in Cambodia if the war was being fought in Vietnam? Did the US military drop stuff by mistake? Were the Vietnamese operating out of Cambodia?

 

Please excuse my ignorance.

 

I don't know a lot of the history. I was also too young to remember most of it, other than seeing it on television back then. I'm 47 now. 

 

I believe a lot of the landmines were put here to stop the Viet Cong from having an escape route? Someone else may be able to explain better than I can. I don't know why so many bombs were dropped here. You can google something like, "Cambodia, most bombed country in the world". That  will probably give you some decent results?

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Mikala

Geez, more disappointment. The USA government hid the factual details of where they were bombing until just recently. I'm surprised by this. I would have thought Vietnam would have received the bulk of the bombs.

http://irevolution.net/2012/01/14/crisis-mapping-kissinger-cambodia/

 

Taylor analyzed a recently declassified Pentagon geo-referenced data set of all US bombings during the Indo-Chinese war which revealed substantial errors in the historical record of what happened to Cambodia between 1965-1973. The spatial and temporal analysis also adds more food for thought regarding the link between the rise of the Khmer Rouge and American air strikes. In particular, Owen’s analysis shows that:

 

“… the total tonnage dropped on Cambodia was five times greater than previously known; the bombing inside Cambodia began nearly 4 years prior to the supposed start of the Menu Campaign, under the Johnson Administration; that, in contradiction to Henry Kissinger’s claims, and over the warning of the Joints Chiefs of Staff, Base Areas 704, 354 and 707 were all heavily bombed; the bombing intensity increased throughout the summer of 1973, after Congress barred any such increase; and, that despite claims by both Kissinger and Nixon to the contrary, there was substantial bombing within 1km of inhabited villages.”

 

To be sure, the crisis mapping analysis of Cambodia “transforms our understanding of the scale of what happened to Cambodia during the Indochinese war. The  total tonnage of bombs dropped on the country had previously been pegged at some 500,000 tons. The new analysis dramatically revises this figure upwards to “2,756,941 tons of US bombs dropped during no fewer than 230,516 sorties.” To put this figure into context, more bombs were dropped on Cambodia than the number of bombs that the US dropped during all of World War II. Cambodia remains the most heavily bombed country in the world.

 

Kissinger had claimed that no bombs were being dropped on villages. He gave assurances, in writing, that no bombs would be dropped “closer than 1 km from villages, hamlets, houses, monuments, temples, pagodas or holy places.” As Owen reveals, “the absurdity of Kissinger’s claim is clearly demonstrated” by the crisis mapping analysis below in which the triangles represent village centers and the red points denote bombing targets, often hit with multiple sorties.

 

Owen argues that “while the villagers may well have hated the Viet Cong, in many cases once their villages had been bombed, they would become more sympathetic to the Khmer Rouge,” hence the supposed link between the eventual Cambodian genocide which killed 1.7 million people (~21% of the population) and the US bombing. To be sure,  “the civilian casualties caused by the bombing significantly increased the recruiting capacity of the Khmer Rouge, whom over the course of the bombing campaign transformed from a small agrarian revolutionary group, to a large anti-imperial army capable of taking over the country.”

 

In sum, the crisis mapping analysis of Cambodia “challenges both the established historical narrative on the scale and scope of this campaign, as well as our understanding of the effects of large scale aerial bombardment.”

 

Cambodia Bomb Sites 1965-1973.jpg

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Salty Dog
As of the current Census taken during August, 2000, the surviving U.S. Vietnam Veteran population estimate is: 1,002,511. This is hard to believe, losing nearly 711,000 between '95 and '00. That's 390 per day. During this Census count, the number of Americans falsely claiming to have served in-country is: 13,853,027. By this census, FOUR OUT OF FIVE WHO CLAIM TO BE VIETNAM VETS ARE NOT.

 

The issue about so many people claiming to be Vietnam vets when they weren't could be misleading. It may be the way the question was asked during the Census. 

 

I have a National Defence Medal for the Vietnam War and am considered a Veteran of the Vietnam War, but I never served in Vietnam. It is sometimes described as Vietnam era Veteran which means you didn't serve in Vietnam. It's that way in all wars. There are always a large number of armed forces personnel who don't serve in/on the battle field. I am also a Veteran of Desert Storm and The Iraq War, but I never served in Kuwait or Iraq. I just happen to be on active duty and participated in some aspect of the war. In my case it was providing port security for the transportation by the Military Sealift Command of the Army 3rd Infantry Division out of Fort Stewart, GA.

Edited by Salty Dog
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cebubird

Vietnam War: Facts, Stats & Myths

Credit: Capt. Marshal Hanson, USNR (Ret.)

and Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam .

Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.

 

=================== Truncated ==================

 

 

 

Thank you thank you THANK YOU from the bottom of my heart!!!!!! Most of the things in that article I knew or had seen, but to read it all together like that As an electronics "spook" who was privy to LOTS of info, I was totally shocked when I returned to US and began seeing completely slanted news coverage. That is when I began to make the transition from dem to rep, and also began searching for for news stories that reported truthfully.

Again, my hearfelt thanks for this post.

And yeah Nixon "dared" to send our forces into Laos and Cambodia as the NVA was using those places as sanctuary from which they were attacking and killing American, Vietnames, and other countries soldiers. Think this actually started under Johnson, but Nixon got the flak for it.--From me and countless others, he got praise for it.

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One thing not addressed here, is the amount of ordinance dropped on Cambodia, Vietnam's neighboring country. Was that a myth? Or, was it real?

 

I am a witness that it was real. My unit was in the Cambodian invasion in may 1970. We went into the parrots beak region for about a week.  Thousands of huge bomb craters, the kind that when they are filled with water a dozen guys at a time can take a swim in.

 

Some villages obliterated, while others were untouched, I couldn't figure out any pattern to it. One thing that struck me as odd at the time, was that some of these bomb craters had small trees growing out of them. How could that be when the Cambodian operation was only a few weeks old?   Of course years later the secret illegal bombing campaign in Cambodia was exposed in the press. I don't think all the mines can be blamed on US.  I think most were from the Khemer Rouge war with the Vietnamese communists. The Cambodians used them to protect their base areas.

 

Its a shame that out of desperation we got involved in Cambodia, and helped overthrow their King and ended his balancing act to try to keep his country out of the war. He was popular among the common peasants.  When we went into abandoned villages we found his picture on the altars of their buddist temples. His overthrow along with the crazy bombing, helped create the insane murderous Khemer Rouge.

 

Sadly that's the theme since WWII. Our crazy paranoia about communism, and our heavy handed methods made us hundreds or millions of enemies around the world. I can't believe anyone still believes in the crazy domino theory. People just want to govern their own countries free of foreign influence. If we had listened to our founding fathers and avoided foreign entanglements the world would be a better place

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The issue about so many people claiming to be Vietnam vets when they weren't could be misleading. It may be the way the question was asked during the Census. 

 

I have a National Defence Medal for the Vietnam War and am considered a Veteran of the Vietnam War, but I never served in Vietnam. It is sometimes described as Vietnam era Veteran which means you didn't serve in Vietnam. It's that way in all wars. There are always a large number of armed forces personnel who don't serve in/on the battle field. I am also a Veteran of Desert Storm and The Iraq War, but I never served in Kuwait or Iraq. I just happen to be on active duty and participated in some aspect of the war. In my case it was providing port security for the transportation by the Military Sealift Command of the Army 3rd Infantry Division out of Fort Stewart, GA.

 

 

I served in the Navy 1973-1977 and I too am considered by many as a Vietnam Vet. Even though the closest I got was when on our way to Thailand our Helos flew some ammo to some place on the coast of Nam that was in 73 and 74.

 

I can remember way up into the 80's applications and other forms asking "Are you a Vietnam era Veteran?" work places really loved to see 'yes' because they got tax credits among other credits for 'Hiring a Vietnam Vet.' and that's how all the paper work was filled "Vietnam Viet" even the question was "Vietnam era Veteran". (Heck if there was any training They were reimbursed half the salary for the training period.....I know this for a fact as during the early 80's I was the training officer for one of the companies and had to deal with all that.

 

So I tend to agree with the post that many is not because the person claimed to be but Our Department of Labor (among others) allowed it to be listed that way (FOR CREDITS).

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mpt1947

Vietnam War: Facts, Stats & Myths

Credit: Capt. Marshal Hanson, USNR (Ret.)

and Capt. Scott Beaton, Statistical Source

9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the official Vietnam era from August 5, 1964 to May 7, 1975.

2,709,918 Americans served in uniform in Vietnam .

Vietnam Veterans represented 9.7% of their generation.

 

 

=================== Truncated ====================

 

 

Very Good and very interesting - Can you provide your sources?

Thank you to whoever truncated this per Paul - the above is really not a source I looked up the first Officer it doesn't appear that he wrote a book - just where did all this information come from

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Paul

Guys, if you are not specifically replying to the entire quoted text, please truncate the quoted text so as not to make the threads longer than necessary. 

 

Also, it is very easy to highlight a given part of the text, and use the "Selective Quote" option at the bottom of each post. 

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mpt1947

I can't remember if we sent troops into Cambodia or not, but I know they were in Laos 

Cambodia did get dumped on - reason was to cut off the supply routes coming from the North into the South.

 

I forget the year - Nixon was being investigated, but some how it came out that this bombing was taking place - now I am not a Republican, but that man was taking heat for something that everybody knew about - it was common knowledge in Vietnam - I was a PFC for god sakes and I knew about it.  So when it became public in the US - it was kinda like "yeah what is the big deal?"

 

As for land mines again I don't recall any US Troops going into Cambodia - doesn't mean they weren't there - But after the War ended (1975) there was a war between Vietnam and Cambodia - very violent - Cambodia was killing most of their populace my bet is that most of the land mines came from the Khmer Rouge 

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A lot of Vietnam era vets gradually drop the era part when describing their service. They get going the beards and hats and badges and bangles, and the awe from the kids and grandkids when describing their service, They get hooked on the manliness attained by their charade and some start to almost believe it themselves.  Its a refuge for them from the humiliation of being dominated by their wives in our feminist society. .  If they were real man they would reject any praise and attention given to themselves, and instruct people instead to put in on those who really suffered the strain and pain of combat.

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Mikala

The Cambodia part of the story is interesting. I never knew of our involvement with bombing the snot out of that place. Seems as if the Cambodians were covertly working with the North Vietnamese / Chinese initially. Then changed their minds and supposedly invited the USA to bomb the Vietnamese camps.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Menu

 

I kept blaming the Khmer for all the horrificly maimed victims of bombs and landmines. Now I know that a good percentage was due to leftover bombs from the USA carpet bombing campaign.

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I take issue with several of the facts about the Vietnam war. Among them is the most were volunteers part. That statement is very misleading.

 

I knew the US involvement in the Vietnam war was a criminal mistake from the time I entered High School. Yet I am a volunteer for Vietnam. How did that happen? Well at the time there was a draft. If you didn't have the money to be in college and were fit you knew you were going in.  

 

As we saw our older friends being drafted we knew almost to the month when our induction notice would be in the mail.  Many of us went to recruiters to try to get the best deal. You could sign up for a school if you were willing to go in for 4 years. The recruiter told me that there was a new 2 year enlistment and although they couldn't guarantee me a school, if there were any openings  the hundreds of military school training programs, I would be the first one to get in.  

 

I was young and stupid to fall for that lie from this slick recruiter desperate to make his quota. When I got to Vietnam I found that many of my fellows had been similarly bamboozled. All the two year enlistees went straight into the infantry and straight to Vietnam. They could be listed as volunteers for the war.   Its like asking a guy on death row whether he wants to be hung or electrocuted and then c when he makes his choice saying that he volunteered to be electrocuted.   Just one of the multitude of lies fed to the American people about the war.

 

Of course once in and there, and  being a good and honorable American boy I did my job and got a bunch of medals, because I also believe that once you are in..... that in the words of the famous poet...(Tennison?) "Ours Was Not to Reason Why...Ours was just to do and die".   I paid for being too stupid and timid to go to Canada by being scarred and crippled up for life. 

 

My friend whose grave I visited today (Memorial Day) signed up for four years to be a mechanic in the military but the slick recruiter was able to get him to sign up without giving him the contract for the school. This slight of hand from a slick recruiter was protested and investigated however and he was disciplined after my neighbor and only 12 days difference in age good friend, was shot to death a couple months after going to Nam.

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