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fred42

Connecting ground wire.

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Mikala

Any chance you can connect to the ground on the pole?

 

I'd go with what Headshot recommended. You don't want much distance between yourself and the grounds. Saving a few pesos isn't worth someone's life.

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SkyMan

I'd go with what Headshot recommended. You don't want much distance between yourself and the grounds. Saving a few pesos isn't worth someone's life.

How do you know how far it is to the pole or the septic tank for that matter?  I wouldn't put the septic any closer than I had to so the pole might be the closer of the too.  And with the pole, you don't have to worry about the ground drying out or is my copper rod deep enough, etc.

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Mikala

How do you know how far it is to the pole or the septic tank for that matter?  I wouldn't put the septic any closer than I had to so the pole might be the closer of the too.  And with the pole, you don't have to worry about the ground drying out or is my copper rod deep enough, etc.

 

Sorry, I didn't read thru all the previous posts. A combination of what has been previously written would be the safest. If there's only going to be 1 ground, then what Headshot wrote would be very good. A poster afterwards recommended using 4 stainless steel rods, but those might be cost-prohibitive.

 

What's referred to as a copper ground rod is just a copper coated steel rod. These corrode easily in a wet environment and over a period of years, you will lose your grounding. My experience in Hawaii is that we'd always recommend customers install at least 2 ground rods in an attempt to make the home safe for a few decades. On my ranch, I have soil that's about 4 meters deep. I used 4 ground rods (minimum 2 meters apart), but I could push the rods in with my hand most of the way.

 

Note: these ground rods are also tied together to provide lightning protection.

 

Oh, utility pole ground rods are usually driven in close to the pole itself (made out of wood). That lowers its ability to dissipate any electrical energy. The utility's ground rod also should not be used as it's usually considered the property of the utility.

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Headshot

The grounds on most poles here are only connected to the communications cables, so they don't provide any tie to the power system. You can establish a grounded neutral at a transformer (where voltage is stepped up or down), but not independent of a transformer. Unfortunately, though the center points on transformers are generally grounded here, there is no neutral established (that is run to the house). That is why we have 220 volt secondary here rather than 110/220 volt secondary.

 

In the US, we are used to having a grounded neutral run into the home, which gives us stable voltage. Here, because we only have the two hot legs with no neutral, the voltage isn't nearly as stable. Do not confuse running ground wires along with the power wires with having a neutral wire that can be connected to form a circuit. The only place the ground wire can be connected is to the grounding point on outlets (the third hole...if there is one).

 

Because most homes have no grounding here, it is rare to see outlets with grounding holes (a third hole). Most outlets here only have two holes for the power prongs of plugs. When I had my house remodeled, I had a central ground driven, which is connected to a bar in the breaker box, which is in turn connected to the ground wires for all circuits in the house. That allows me to use things like surge protectors. Without a ground, they won't function, and therefore offer no protection. Any time you break off the ground prong on a surge protector cable (or use an adapter) to allow it to be plugged into a two-hole outlet, you turn it into a simple extension cord.

Edited by Headshot
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David_LivinginTalisay

It is the re-bar doing the conduction down to water level and the impurities (minerals) in the water that then take over - and water does enter normal concrete.  So yes do not use for slab type construction as you probably have there and above water level but here in Thailand where the water level is normally just below the surface and building piles are used it is sometimes used.  Anything in better than nothing but agree get a good ground and use it.  But even more important is to have ELCB protection (which does not require a ground to work).

 

ELCB's have largely been replaced with RCD's in the UK.

 

 
History

ELCBs were mainly used on TT earthing systems. Nowadays, ELCBs have been mostly replaced by residual-current devices(RCDs). However many ELCBs are still in use.

Early ELCBs responded to sine wave fault currents, but not to rectified fault current. Over time, filtering against nuisance trips has also improved. Early ELCBs thus offer a little less safety and higher risk of nuisance trip. The ability to distinguish between a fault condition and non-risk conditions is called discrimination.

 

 

 

residual-current device (RCD), or residual-current circuit breaker (RCCB) or residual twin-direct current couplet (R2D2), is an electrical wiring device that disconnects a circuit whenever it detects that the electric current is not balanced between the energized conductor and the return neutral conductor. Such an imbalance may indicate current leakage through the body of a person who is grounded and accidentally touching the energized part of the circuit. A lethal shock can result from these conditions. RCCBs are designed to disconnect quickly enough to prevent injury caused by such shocks. They are not intended to provide protection against overcurrent (overload) or all short-circuit conditions.

In the United States and Canada, a residual-current device is most commonly known as a Ground Fault Circuit Interrupter (GFCI), Ground Fault Interrupter (GFI) or an Appliance Leakage Current Interrupter (ALCI). Ground Fault Condition is defined as: An unintentional, electrically conducting connection between an ungrounded conductor of an electrical circuit and the normally non-current-carrying conductors, metallic enclosures, metallic raceways, metallic equipment or earth.

In the United Kingdom, a residual-current device is referred to as an RCD or an RCBO when including overcurrent protection. Non residual-current circuit protection devices are called Circuit Breakers or MCBs. Infrequently they can be called Trips or Trip Switches.

In Australia, they are sometimes known as Safety Switches or an RCD.

residual-current circuit breaker with overload protection (RCBO) combines the functions of overcurrent protection and leakage detection. An earth leakage circuit breaker (ELCB) may be a residual-current device, although an older type of voltage-operated earth leakage circuit breaker exists.

Residual-current device is a generic term covering both RCCBs and RCBOs.

 

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hyaku

Lol all the wiring in my house was done with all black heavy duty wiring. Difficult to know which is positive or negative without testing. It's the stuff they use for 110 volt slower current in Japan. Its more like cooker cable. The weakest point on my circuit is probably a light bulb. The power company don't earth anyway!

 

One good thing is if the cable is stripped and folded a few times it makes a good earth for a few three pin sockets for the kitchen and comp.

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Headshot

Lol all the wiring in my house was done with all black heavy duty wiring. Difficult to know which is positive or negative without testing. It's the stuff they use for 110 volt slower current in Japan. Its more like cooker cable. The weakest point on my circuit is probably a light bulb. The power company don't earth anyway!

 

One good thing is if the cable is stripped and folded a few times it makes a good earth for a few three pin sockets for the kitchen and comp.

 

VECO grounds the center points on their transformers (to a driven ground rod). They just don't ground their other poles because they don't run neutrals, so it would be a wasted effort. If you were lucky enough to live close to a transformer pole, you could conceivably have them run a neutral to your home, and you would have 110/220 volt system. That, of course, would present its own problems, since most electric appliances sold here only take 220 volts.

Edited by Headshot

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samatm

my(rented) Condo in Manila was wired 220/110  clear marked outlets.....very very helpful for our mixed bag of gadgets and appliances... sadly my home in CEBU was 220 only.... and yes have burned out a few items (Wii .. drill, coffee maker... just by accident even though measures were in place to prevent such accidents...  (hint visitors and helpers don't really understand  "110 Only" .    

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ShawnM

As we have land on a pretty much solid limestone we are having problems driving in the ground bar..

Ive just been doing a bit of reading about "Ufer ground" which is basically connecting the ground wire to the foundations..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ufer_ground

Cant do that as no exposed rebar now..

Would connecting the ground wire to the rebar in the underground water tank be OK?

The tank is concrete rebar reinforced.

Yes you can.  Ufer grounds are specified quite often, 22 facilities on my site called for an Ufer ground and it is pretty dry here.

 

Shawn

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thebob

just by accident even though measures were in place to prevent such accidents...  (hint visitors and helpers don't really understand  "110 Only" .

 

 

Change your 110V plugs and outlets to slanted aussie style ones then it is physically difficult to make a mistake.

 

Like these.

 

European_American_Australian_New_Zealand

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lopburi3

The normal multi type outlets here in Thailand accept them without any issues.  In today's world only having the proper voltage appliance is a sure thing.

electricity-wall-outlet.jpg

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thebob

 

 

The normal multi type outlets here in Thailand accept them without any issues.  In today's world only having the proper voltage appliance is a sure thing.

 

So change the outlets.

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SkyMan

 

 

Lol all the wiring in my house was done with all black heavy duty wiring. Difficult to know which is positive or negative without testing.
If you have VECO, you don't have one.  Both wires are hot 110V.

 

The power company don't earth anyway!
Sure they do, they just don't normally supply it to the house.

 

Headshot, on 20 Apr 2014 - 2:01 PM, said:

VECO grounds the center points on their transformers (to a driven ground rod). They just don't ground their other poles because they don't run neutrals, so it would be a wasted effort. If you were lucky enough to live close to a transformer pole, you could conceivably have them run a neutral to your home, and you would have 110/220 volt system. That, of course, would present its own problems, since most electric appliances sold here only take 220 volts.

Not in this area and yes, I know, VECO (and everything else here) is extremely consistent.  :sarcasm:   The poles near my place have six wires.  The top 3 are the 440 lines.  One of those connects to a step down xformer.  The outer 2 lugs of the xformer are the bottom two wires on the pole which supply the meters.  The center lug in grounded and connects to all things needing grounded on the pole like the metal bars that hold the insulators for the wires and even the guy wires on the poles though they are insulated halfway down to the stake.  That is the middle wire on the pole.  It's the same as the neutral wire supplied in the US but it's just not supplied here.  I have called and sent messages to VECO and gone into their office several times to get a connection to that wire and so far, no dice.  The best so far is that they sent one of their multicabs of techs out to check out my meter and I'm not sure they even understood what I wanted even after 15 minutes during which they calibrated my meter and a few other useless that had nothing to do with what I wanted.  (I did note that they just pulled the seal off the meter and reused it when they were finished in case you want to work on your meter yourself.)  Anyway, on the latest trip to their office and explaining to them for about 30 minutes including drawings of poles and wires etc., there was a tech there that said why don't I run the wire myself.  The desk clerk agreed and I asked both of them again just to make sure it was ok to run the line myself and they said fine.  So some nice Sunday evening when I find a tall enough ladder I'll run the stupid ground (neutral) wire.

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lopburi3

So change the outlets.

Does not help when something like this in plugged into it.

PZB404.jpg

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Woolf

Veco power distribution system

 

http://www.veco.com.ph/page.html?main=efficiency&sub1=about%20energy

 

Please notice that the pole transformer primary is 23,000 volt

The 23,000 volt is 3 phase, one the phases feeds the pole transformer

08021412029690080.jpg

Edited by Woolf

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thebob

Does not help when something like this in plugged into it.

PZB404.jpg

 

So don't have something like that in your house.

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ShawnM

We allow the "ufer" ground in Hawaii, but it does get planted into the earth thru the rebar at some point. Customers complain that the lava and basalt rock is too hard to get a ground into, but we still require the ground for the customer's safety. We even started using equipment to check customer grounds to ensure they were correctly installed.

 

I'd recommend drilling into the ground, but try to get at least 2 to 3 meters into the ground with 2 ground rods. Alternatively you could use a coil of wire around an underground tank (septic?).

 

Keep in mind that corrosion will eat away at whatever ground rod or wire that you're using.

 

Note: cement / concrete is more of an insulator than a conductor. Don't allow any concrete get between your ground rod (or wire) and the earth.

The NEC considers concrete as a "ground", look at safe clearance for an example.  Concrete encased electrodes are quite common and are talked about in the NEC.

Yeah dont connect earths to any infrastructure, gonna have to drill brah

Building steel is required to be bonded to your grounding system, I would consider that infrastructure.

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ShawnM

We made sure that the whole building was wired live neutral earth..

 

 

Thanks for the suggestions re septic tank(What size copper wire? No 8 mains wire?) although I have been reading today that concrete is an excellent conductor!! 

Now I`m confused again! 

You are correct, concrete has a lower resistance than most soil.

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ShawnM

Nix the idea on just laying wire in the ground. In alkaline soil (which limestone is), any metal you put in the ground WILL corrode...the smaller the diameter, the faster it will corrode. Go the extra mile and lay a ground rod in the ground as deep as you can when you dig the hole for the septic tank. That should be connected to a #6 solid copper wire (don't use stranded wire...which is just a collection of small wires that will each corrode individually). Also nix any thought of hooking the ground to rebar that will be encased in concrete. Though concrete is conductive when wet, once it dries it is highly insulative...and you won't have a good ground.

The only place you would find a solid conductor as a grounding conductor is a pole ground.  The industry standard is to use stranded bare copper wire.

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Woolf

 

 

In the US, we are used to having a grounded neutral run into the home, which gives us stable voltage. Here, because we only have the two hot legs with no neutral, the voltage isn't nearly as stable

 

Why run the grounded neutral /grounded center tap to the house when it is not used, to me that would just be a waste of copper

 

I have a hard time figuring out why bringing the grounded neutral to the house, should have any influence on how stable the power is

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ShawnM

Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI) in the USA performed studies for utility pole lightning arrestor grounds. Typically we'd toss a loop of copper wire into the hole (6 AWG solid bare copper wire), then set the pole in concrete. We changed our procedure after the study showed that the concrete was a bad idea. Now using a separate hole for ground rods.

 

Just using common sense, what part of concrete's makeup would make someone think it would conduct electricity? Sand? Cement? Aggregate? I'm surprised it required a study to figure that out! Might as well fund a study if men find beautiful girls more attractive than a dead giraffe...

The closest thing I can come up with on your explanation is similar to a what is called a butt ground.  On a wooden pole your bring the grounding conductor down the pole (stapled) and on the bottom of the pole the solid conductor is wrapped as a spiral on the bottom of the pole (copper staples) and then the pole is set in the ground.  A lot of issues with this configuration due to noise being induced, mostly from loose staples.

 

Round concrete utility poles are hollow with a bushing in the top where you run the wire down through it and then out to a ground rod.  Obviously a hollow concrete pole would not have the surface area at it's "butt" end.

 

I will search for the EPRI article as I am curious what it says, but lightning arrestors on a utility pole really has nothing to do with the OP asking about an Ufer ground.

 

Shawn

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ShawnM

Why run the grounded neutral /grounded center tap to the house when it is not used, to me that would just be a waste of copper

 

I have a hard time figuring out why bringing the grounded neutral to the house, should have any influence on how stable the power is

From my understanding from other folks posts, it is basically an American style transformer without using the center tap to run a neutral to the house.  If that center tap is purposely grounded, you will have a potential from those two 110VAC phases to ground, albeit back through the earth to the transformer...very high resistance.

 

From being stable...most likely you are living in a house constructed of concrete with PVC conduit, very difficult for any leakage currents or stray currents from other sources.

 

I would personally bring the neutral (grounded conductor) to the panel, drive a rod to bond them and run a grounding conductor to every receptacle and outlet for personal protection; though not followed, it is a code requirement, from the Philippines to the US and I assume every western country out there for proper grounding.

 

The various codes don't always make sense (been using the NEC for over 26 years) but it is either for our protection or the insurance companies.

 

Shawn

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Woolf

I made this drawing more than a year ago

 

 

post-6705-0-24177000-1398100319_thumb.jpg

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ShawnM

Everyone, I read back through my posts on this topic and realize I was not exactly clear on some things. 

 

Concrete is NOT a conductor...the soil in your backyard is NOT a conductor.  Concrete, normally has less resistive properties than soil.  Concrete encased electrodes are a solution in soils that have a very high resistance. 

 

The real purpose of grounding is to dissipate unwanted currents that may travel through unwanted paths (you or your family)...the reason the earth works pretty good is that there is a lot of it.  The reason an Ufer ground is effective is that there is usually a lot of rebar and every bit of that goes into the surface area of each bar (if they are electrically continuous).

 

The OP has other options as well, he can drive the rod at and angle, go with a horizontal position or even look into plate electrodes...surface area is the most important thing.  From his posts I would go with the Ufer and feel confident with that opinion.

 

The area I am building in is 220 phase to neutral, I am comfortable with that and will drive a rod (my lots have a higher water table)and it will be bonded to the neutral connection in my panel; but if I was in an area that had 220 phase to phase with no neutral connection I would buy my own transformer.  220 phase to phase without a neutral or ground is a stupid configuration and puts everyone in the house at risk. 

 

Shawn

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ShawnM

I made this drawing more than a year ago

Yes Sir...and all three configurations show the transformer as being grounded.

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