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Brucewayne

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Brucewayne

Something has dawned on me after all these years and it has been nagging me all this time, but I wasn't sure just what it was.

The reason I didn't realize what the problem was in the Philippines before now is because the white man half of me was doing the thinking instead of the native American half of me.

Thinking back on how my Mother and her family thought and reacted to life, I see now that we are expecting too much from these people without allowing them to adjust to modern ways in a proper manner.

As the native Americans back in the 1800's and onward, new lifestyles and technology are being put into their lives without prior training.

The "more advanced" civilizations simply came along and started dumping information on the people without allowing the cultural shock to wear off and as all people of this Earth, the natives were resisting much of the information and at the same time they were mesmerised by the new things they were shown.

My mother (resting in her happy hunting grounds) was a prime example and I compare my wife and her family to that of my mother's and it is basically the same.

Western man came along, started teaching his ways and language to the natives including his politics, started dumping construction theories, pics/illustrations and ideas without being able to explain these things thoroughly to them.Then the Westerners became amused, frustrated and enraged because the natives couldn't fully grasp the information being piled upon the natives.

The westerners called my mother's people ignorant, stubborn and dirty "Indians" because those people were only able to absorb so much information at a time and if they weren't born into the same world, resistance and disbelif to the changes set in due to a complete case of cultural shock.

That, in my opinion is what is going on here.

So before we poke fun at these people or become frustrated with them, we need to think about the lives they were born into and the lives we led since birth.

I still feel that most natives (much like some tribes in Brazil and elsewhere in South America) should have been left in their own invironment and if modern ways are deemed necessary, intervene.

Otherwise, it would be wiser to allow them their own ways, religions and belief system.

We should be observers, not criticizers and things will catch up in it's own time.

I mean after all, we have dumped hundreds of years of thoughts, inventions and ideas upon a group of people all at one time.

First the Spanish with their version of religion, the the U.S. in 1898 and now the people are confused, frustrated and harder to teach than they might have been if they had been gradually introduced and allowed a choice in cultures rather than bullied into accepting said cultures.

I see it all the time and am guilty of it myself, westerners complaining about the locals, even seeing them yelling at these otherwise peaceful people.

That is where the new generations have learned prejudice, violence and resistance to new ideas.

It has to start (stop?) somewhere, why not here and now?

Try to be much more patient and understanding when dealing with these folks, they are eager and able to learn, but like anyone else from anywhere in the world, they will resist the use of force feeding information.

If you want to "Westernize" a people, you have to allow them to observe instead of trying to change what they think, say or doo at every turn.

They will then become more curious and ask questions, answer them, but only what they ask as they, like us, hate long speeches (which is what I am posting right now).

But I still feel they and we would be happier if natives were left alone and allowed to be themselves, much like my mother's people whose lives were mostly ruined by "modern" thinking.

Good day and feel free to attack my opinion as it is only MY opinion based on my life here and in the U.S., not necessarily fact.

Edited by Brucewayne
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Something has dawned on me after all these years and it has been nagging me all this time, but I wasn't sure just what it was. The reason I didn't realize what the problem was in the Philippines befo

The title is Give Them a Chance .  Just how much chance/time do you have in mind ?  WW2 ended almost 70 years ago- so what are they waiting for ?  Are you saying that the way that westerners treat fil

well i'm not sure i agree with your analogy but hey we all have our own opinions. the way i see it is the local culture rabidly embraces the western way of life with all the trappings of gadgets, SUVs

jtmwatchbiz

well i'm not sure i agree with your analogy but hey we all have our own opinions. the way i see it is the local culture rabidly embraces the western way of life with all the trappings of gadgets, SUVs and luxury, but as only a "surface adaptation" as they still regard the lesser members of their culture with a feudal like striation of class rank, as can be seen quite obviously by the way workers are treated and the stricken and sick are neglected. i don't think other cultures around the world such as your example of American Indians regarded their own in the same manner. if anything, i think that life will be for the better here when the western culture is absorbed deeper than the present thin veneer of appearance. 

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I think the Native Americans in California have adapted quite well to owning and operating casinos! LOL!!! Seriously though, the American Indians WERE oppressed by the white man. Filipinos however ARE currently being oppressed by a handful of corupt politicians and other elite Filipinos from their own society.

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I don't fully know what holds a people back from being a technological and economical marvel. I would like to know.  Japan made the transition, Korea too and unlikely Singapore remarkably became one of the top affluent nations in the world.  I suspect strong leadership plays a role it certainly did in Singapore.  There is something amiss with the Philippines they tend to look to themselves rather than outward, certainly protectionist in attitude.  Whatever disadvantages they have they are still far above Africa in wealth.   Why do some nations prosper and why do others fail?  The flow of money from some sort of resource plays a part.  When people have nothing that the others want I guess they stay in their initial situation.  Japan and then Korea adapted and started giving the world the things they wanted learning and improving the quality.   Singapore having no products offered something else and became a gateway for trade.

 

When I was in art school this architect came and gave us a lecture on French cathedrals and one of his points was why in the 12th century were the French building so many cathedrals?  They worked it out that the French for a period had bumper wine crops and traded wine to the rest of Europe bringing in an excess of wealth so any dog and his bone could have a cathedral.   

 

I believe you need strong leadership, a vision and something to trade and the will to make it happen along with the belief you can do it.  I don't see this in the Philippines.  Filipinos have a good reputation around the world as employees and entertainers.  When I see the Philippines trading OFWs I shake my head as we all know it will be a short term solution to bringing in wealth and they need something more sustainable and desirable, this domestic or servant mentality does not serve them well.   You will always be poor if you dont find something the world wants.  And as long as Filipinos or any culture that has a fatalistic outlook like 'bahala na'  they will never get past their belly button.  You gotta believe you can do things.   You got to believe you can go to the moon.  My Filipino friends are angry with situations they see in their country but have the belief they can't do anything about it.  Its not a can do country.  Maybe it is the oligarchy holding them back but in my opinion the people let them and I don't fully understand why, it can't all be the 'pakikisama' belief holding them back can it?   So sad. 

 

Pakikisama = the dominant cultural value of getting along with each other at the expense of other, sometimes important, things.   You can sometimes see the dangerous frustration simmering under the social surface ready to explode, specially in men. 

 

 

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Majorsco

Not sure Singapore is a good example because it was an invented city/location established to be a trade center from the start.

 

When Englishman Thomas Raffles founded Singapore it was an empty swamp with only a feet few Malaysians, not even a tribe. He built it from scratch and attracted a number of people from several countries that ultimately became the success it is today. It didn't have cultural baggage from before Raffles.

 

Now cultural baggage of people relocating to Singapore, that's a different story. Those people were open to change by virtue of their relocation and becoming part of the new city.

 

 

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Davaoeno

The title is Give Them a Chance .  Just how much chance/time do you have in mind ?  WW2 ended almost 70 years ago- so what are they waiting for ?  Are you saying that the way that westerners treat filipinos is the reason that the filipinos live in abject poverty to a great degree ? Is the western treatment the reason that the main production seems to be of endlessly more children ?  Is it because of the western treatment that they live in an incredibly corrupt society - and continue to elect more and more corrupt politians ?  Is it because of western treatment that whenever you try to point out self-destructive societal behaviors the answer is " but we have Manny Paquiou " !!

 

Using the north american aboriginals as an example is not a good idea- because of all the peoples in the world [ outside of Australia] they seem to have been one of the most unwilling to learn to adapt to new cultures.   Almost all nations on earth at one time or another were  invaded by another culture . Most adapted .   Some refused to .  And in Canada today some still - hundreds of years later- refuse to adapt .    Adapt or perish .

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Brucewayne

I don't fully know what holds a people back from being a technological and economical marvel. I would like to know.  Japan made the transition, Korea too and unlikely Singapore remarkably became one of the top affluent nations in the world.  I suspect strong leadership plays a role it certainly did in Singapore.  There is something amiss with the Philippines they tend to look to themselves rather than outward, certainly protectionist in attitude.  Whatever disadvantages they have they are still far above Africa in wealth.   Why do some nations prosper and why do others fail?  The flow of money from some sort of resource plays a part.  When people have nothing that the others want I guess they stay in their initial situation.  Japan and then Korea adapted and started giving the world the things they wanted learning and improving the quality.   Singapore having no products offered something else and became a gateway for trade.

 

When I was in art school this architect came and gave us a lecture on French cathedrals and one of his points was why in the 12th century were the French building so many cathedrals?  They worked it out that the French for a period had bumper wine crops and traded wine to the rest of Europe bringing in an excess of wealth so any dog and his bone could have a cathedral.   

 

I believe you need strong leadership, a vision and something to trade and the will to make it happen along with the belief you can do it.  I don't see this in the Philippines.  Filipinos have a good reputation around the world as employees and entertainers.  When I see the Philippines trading OFWs I shake my head as we all know it will be a short term solution to bringing in wealth and they need something more sustainable and desirable, this domestic or servant mentality does not serve them well.   You will always be poor if you dont find something the world wants.  And as long as Filipinos or any culture that has a fatalistic outlook like 'bahala na'  they will never get past their belly button.  You gotta believe you can do things.   You got to believe you can go to the moon.  My Filipino friends are angry with situations they see in their country but have the belief they can't do anything about it.  Its not a can do country.  Maybe it is the oligarchy holding them back but in my opinion the people let them and I don't fully understand why, it can't all be the 'pakikisama' belief holding them back can it?   So sad. 

 

Pakikisama = the dominant cultural value of getting along with each other at the expense of other, sometimes important, things.   You can sometimes see the dangerous frustration simmering under the social surface ready to explode, specially in men. 

Those few who have tried taking on powers that are in control are normally missing and/or dead.

No can do society would get away with very many murders without being stopped.

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Hong kong chines adapted, the main land is trying to catch up

Edited by spooks
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Brucewayne

The title is Give Them a Chance .  Just how much chance/time do you have in mind ?  WW2 ended almost 70 years ago- so what are they waiting for ?  Are you saying that the way that westerners treat filipinos is the reason that the filipinos live in abject poverty to a great degree ? Is the western treatment the reason that the main production seems to be of endlessly more children ?  Is it because of the western treatment that they live in an incredibly corrupt society - and continue to elect more and more corrupt politians ?  Is it because of western treatment that whenever you try to point out self-destructive societal behaviors the answer is " but we have Manny Paquiou " !!

 

Using the north american aboriginals as an example is not a good idea- because of all the peoples in the world [ outside of Australia] they seem to have been one of the most unwilling to learn to adapt to new cultures.   Almost all nations on earth at one time or another were  invaded by another culture . Most adapted .   Some refused to .  And in Canada today some still - hundreds of years later- refuse to adapt .    Adapt or perish .

 

Give them a chance to adapt, no hand outs, even a hunting dog will stop hunting if he is allowed to beg.

No learning can take place if offered under force, which is what you will see on an almost daily basis.

Go into the stores and many times you will hear some loud mouthed foreigner telling the employees and/or management how to run their businesses.

People learn better by example than they do by being bullied.

My point was, if you bully people, they will not learn. or they will only learn minimally.

Treat them as friends, let them try on their own and if they ask, then give kindly advice.

Just like children with their school work, they learn more in a friendly, non intrusive invironment than they do under strict guidelines.

It may take a hundred years or more for these people to get the hang of supporting themselves, but they have to learn it by trial and error with few or no hand outs, which hinders their growth and keeps them immature.

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Davaoeno

 

 

Just like children with their school work, they learn more in a friendly, non intrusive invironment

 

You seem to have a very low opinion of filipinos .  

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Brucewayne

You seem to have a very low opinion of filipinos .  

 

How do infer that from such a generic statement?

That was simply the truth and not about Filipinos, but all people in general.

I really do wish you would try to stay on topic and the same page as the subject at hand, rather than trying to slander people's statements so much.

Oh well, maybe you have a problem we don't know about and I really should avoid such conflicts with you in the future, so sorry.

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Those few who have tried taking on powers that are in control are normally missing and/or dead.

No can do society would get away with very many murders without being stopped.

 

You make good points I dont have an answer but I do see they vote for people who do not often help them.  Its a Filipino democracy which means patronage plays a big part. 

 

 

Not sure Singapore is a good example because it was an invented city/location established to be a trade center from the start.

 

When Englishman Thomas Raffles founded Singapore it was an empty swamp with only a feet few Malaysians, not even a tribe. He built it from scratch and attracted a number of people from several countries that ultimately became the success it is today. It didn't have cultural baggage from before Raffles.

 

Now cultural baggage of people relocating to Singapore, that's a different story. Those people were open to change by virtue of their relocation and becoming part of the new city.

 

If it wasn't for Lee Singapore would have been a dot at the end of a sentence after the war even Malaysia didn't want it.   Raffles may have collected the people but they rose above their destiny themselves without the aid of the English.  

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Majorsco

You make good points I dont have an answer but I do see they vote for people who do not often help them. Its a Filipino democracy which means patronage plays a big part.

 

 

 

If it wasn't for Lee Singapore would have been a dot at the end of a sentence after the war even Malaysia didn't want it. Raffles may have collected the people but they rose above their destiny themselves without the aid of the English.

To be sure Lee had a great influence on singapore'a success but that is not what this thread was about. It is about indigenous people's being trampled by invaders or outsiders. Two different discussions.

 

Prewar Singapore was highly successful in being a trading hub. Modern day Singapore is now also successful in technology and finance. Lee and others can take credit for the modern successes but don't trash the first 150 years of their existence.

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Davaoeno

 

 

It is about indigenous people's being trampled by invaders or outsiders.

 

It is ??  I thought it was about filipinos today - of whom very few could be described as " indigenous"

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Majorsco

It is ?? I thought it was about filipinos today - of whom very few could be described as " indigenous"

Yes it is, and Filipinos are the indigenous people's that have a varied history with some being mixed with foreign blood (spanish, Chinese, Malaysians, Arabs, Hindu's, Americans, and others) the centuries. There are also a number of tribal cultures still living in tribes here in the Philippines.

 

My first memory of hearing about Mindanao was a national geographic article from the early 70's of a newly found tribe that lived their ancient ways.

 

I don't know the status of that tribe but the discussion in the OP could be applied to them. Does anyone know their status?

 

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