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brownouts ( the longest one yet )


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shadow

 

 

I have one of those "cheap chinese pieces of crap" sitting in my yard. It was manufactured in 2005, and a friend of mine bought it brand new. He ran it for 5 years. He lives about 10 KM from the highway, and has very poor electrical service. Numerous times per year it ran for two or three weeks straight, without being shut down. It almost always ran for 2 days per week minimum, without being shut down. I acquired it because I was always the one working on it, to keep it running for those 5 years. Mostly, he had starter problems, because he did not know how to use the compression release (this we figured out too late to help him). What finally killed it was the radiator sprung a leak, and since it had been running for a week at the time nobody noticed, it overheated, destroying the cylinder/piston, etc.

 

I estimate this gen has a very minimum of 4000 hours on it. It cost me P6000 to rebuild it completely. Nothing has ever been done to the windings.

 

If one does the math, to run a 10 kw Honda for 4000 hours would cost P880,000 in fuel alone. To run the "Chinese piece of crap" would cost P280,000.

 

The fuel savings alone would pay for THREE new Hondas, no matter how you spin it!   

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On the contrary, there are many brands of high quality commercial generator available here. You will never see a Honda powering a hotel, beach resort, call center, or restaurant of any size in the Phi

When in the Philippines, speak like a Filipino?   But it 'bugs' me somewhat, as a Professional I.Eng., to hear Electrical terms, wrongly used, like 'Brownout'!   What color is brown - the color of

Thats exactly it, Dave. For them, it's a brownout. For us, power cut or black out.   Whether it is proper or not, it will be a hell of a lot easier to say it as they do. Because, you can bet your as

shadow

One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

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CebuKano

 

One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

Yes, like I said, you are providing excellent advice. :D Maybe Panther will want to hire you to get his shit up and running when he really needs to use it.... you could make house calls ... perhaps be on a retainer or stay overnight since the frequency of his power outages seem to be a bit above the norm here :D

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One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

 

Not to mention, if you were to convert it to LPG, it would lose what, Larry, 15% to 20% of its rated output? I won't mention using natural gas, since it is not available in the Philippines anyway.

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CebuKano

 

 

 

One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

 

Not to mention, if you were to convert it to LPG, it would lose what, Larry, 15% to 20% of its rated output? I won't mention using natural gas, since it is not available in the Philippines anyway.

I mentioned natural gas only for the benefit of people reading this nonsense outside the Philippines. I'm well fecking aware that natural gas is not available here.

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One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

 

Not to mention, if you were to convert it to LPG, it would lose what, Larry, 15% to 20% of its rated output? I won't mention using natural gas, since it is not available in the Philippines anyway.

I mentioned natural gas only for the benefit of people reading this nonsense outside the Philippines. I'm well fecking aware that natural gas is not available here.

 

I wasn't being rude to you. You have no cause to be so with me. I was merely making that statement for those who do NOT know that Natural Gas is unavailable in the Philippines.

 

I merely said that because there is no sense in attempting to make a point that is moot.

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CebuKano

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

One last point and then I will leave this alone: it is very easy to convert any gasoline generator to run on LP or natural gas. 

 

Ok lets address that. LPG will cut the fuel cost by roughly 30%, which would bring the cost of running a gasoline 10 KW Honda down to roughly P150 per hour, still DOUBLE what it would cost to run the "Chinese piece of crap" 15 KW.

 

Natural gas? In the Philippines?

 

Not to mention, if you were to convert it to LPG, it would lose what, Larry, 15% to 20% of its rated output? I won't mention using natural gas, since it is not available in the Philippines anyway.

I mentioned natural gas only for the benefit of people reading this nonsense outside the Philippines. I'm well fecking aware that natural gas is not available here.

 

I wasn't being rude to you. You have no cause to be so with me. I was merely making that statement for those who do NOT know that Natural Gas is unavailable in the Philippines.

 

I merely said that because there is no sense in attempting to make a point that is moot.

Got ya. Sorry about that. I apologize. Won't happen again.

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smokey

 

After moving to bacolod 14 days ago I have expeirenced 8 days from 14 days of brownouts today being the longest one at 9 hours .I certainly was,nt expecting brownouts on this scale when I moved here i,m hoping things will improve ,The thing that annoys me the most is they never tell you how long or what the reason for them is.now I,M looking for advice from you guys ,my bro n law has an internet cafe with 18 units and a water purifying station side by side ,he,s losing a lot of money from the brownouts .Does anyone know what type of generator would be required to feed enough power to run these 2 busineses the water purifyer needs 3 kilowatts to run but not sure about the cafe any help please and possible costs.

Brownouts are just a part of life here' they often happen due to overloaded transformers that' over time' are exposed to drastic fluctuations in voltage and amps' that shorten their life. In our neighborhood we experience a few brownouts each year but it's no big deal.

 

No matter what' if you decide to purchase a generator' make sure that you buy a Honda brand. The other types sold here are junk and will most likely feck up your appliances with dirty electricity and voltage underage/overage' not to mention that the generator windings will go to hell in short order if you buy a cheap' crappy one. In other words' you get what you pay for.

 

 

 

what happened to its cheaper to live here .... If you buy your own water purifier station, your own electrical system ... seems to take the low cost living to another level ... maybe its just a huge system loss  

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smokey

 

After moving to bacolod 14 days ago I have expeirenced 8 days from 14 days of brownouts today being the longest one at 9 hours .I certainly was,nt expecting brownouts on this scale when I moved here i,m hoping things will improve ,The thing that annoys me the most is they never tell you how long or what the reason for them is.now I,M looking for advice from you guys ,my bro n law has an internet cafe with 18 units and a water purifying station side by side ,he,s losing a lot of money from the brownouts .Does anyone know what type of generator would be required to feed enough power to run these 2 busineses the water purifyer needs 3 kilowatts to run but not sure about the cafe any help please and possible costs.

Brownouts are just a part of life here' they often happen due to overloaded transformers that' over time' are exposed to drastic fluctuations in voltage and amps' that shorten their life. In our neighborhood we experience a few brownouts each year but it's no big deal.

 

No matter what' if you decide to purchase a generator' make sure that you buy a Honda brand. The other types sold here are junk and will most likely feck up your appliances with dirty electricity and voltage underage/overage' not to mention that the generator windings will go to hell in short order if you buy a cheap' crappy one. In other words' you get what you pay for.

 i have a cheap crappy generator and have had it for years its only used maybe 3 times a year for less then an hour but even a cheap crappy one is 100% more expensive then a branded one in the west... 

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After moving to bacolod 14 days ago I have expeirenced 8 days from 14 days of brownouts today being the longest one at 9 hours

 

Just thought you may like to know. An area of the city I currently live in, is going into their 6th day without power.

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David_LivinginTalisay

Diesel v Gasoline Engine FACTS:-

 

  1. Diesel Engines have a much (2-3x) higher Compression Ratio,than a Gasoline Engine!
     
  2. To withstand this higher compression ratio, the barrels, con-rods, small ends and big end's have to be made STRONGER.
     
  3. Diesel Engines, used to have a significant price premium over Gasoline engines (as the stronger Crankshafts/Con-rods/Bearings,/Barrels cost more to produce).
     
  4. Diesel Engines typically have a much lower RPM, (0.5 - 0.3 x) than Gasoline Engines!
     
  5. This lower RPM of diesel engines, translates to reduced frictional velocity!
    (The Piston/Rings, slide up and down the barrel slower, so will last longer, as less friction force to wear them out as quickl)
     
  6. Diesel Engines can run for extended periods (24 hours for days at a time). 
     
  7. Diesel engines can go for longer intervals (2-3 x typically), before major rebuilds.
     
  8. Diesel engines generate more TORQUE compared to gasoline engines (even if smaller capacity),
    (Torque = turning/twisting power, so very suited to driving an electric alternator efficiently)
     
  9. Diesel engines are more economical to run, than Gasoline engines (even ones with much lower cubic capacity)!
     
  10. Gasoline Engines, typically produce more Power than an equivalent cubic capacity diesel engine!
    (But a bigger capacity diesel engine will produce the same power or more, and may/will still be more economical).
     
  11. Turbo Charged Diesels can produce comparable power, to non-turbo gasoline, without a significant increase in running costs.
    (A larger capacity Turbo Diesel is going to produce significantly  more power, for lower or comparable costs than gasoline engines?)

I was employed as F1 (Foreign Service) Staff, by Cable & Wireless Ltd. 

They sent us on RA Lister's "Diesel Engine Maintenance Course", Dursley in the UK, before being posted overseas.

The idea being, that we should be capable of starting, running, maintaining, repairing the stations Generator Set in an emergency, if the mechanic, normally assigned to such duty was unavailable for some reason, and it needed some attention for whatever reason (keeping it topped up with diesel fuel and checking the oil, and even changing the oil (whilst still running if necessary).

I never had to put that training into practice however!

 

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diesel_engine

 

I did choose a Citroen Zantia 2.0 Turbo,as my company vehicle when I worked for  EUROTEL/Craycom in the UK.

 

I also bought a used Toyota Tamaraw 2,0 Diesel as our vehicle in Cebu back in 2001.

 

I sold for not that much below what I paid for it, and bought a NEW Hyundai Matrix 1.5CRDi VGT

 

That Diesel Engine Maintenance Course, with respected company that RA LISTER, who manufacture commercial Generator Sets powered by their Diesel Engines, taught me why they are used for serious commercial electricity production.


No gasoline generator set could run ALL the ESSENTIAL Telecommunications equipment, for days, weeks, months without breaking down or needing essential maintenance. 

 

In other words, Gasoline Generators are not suitable for long/medium term power supply (without a standby Gen Set to take over, which is likely to perhaps cause a power outage?).  I learned it is possible to change the oil on a commercial Diesel Gen Set,whilst it is still running, if absolutely required

 

ie standby generator offline or being used to power something else. I was asked to 'observe' such, in Sanaa North Yemen, as the Training School had the other Generator.  My long wheel base,  Land Rover Safari (that I rebuilt from 2 x scrapped gasoline powered vehicles) was commissioned to tow the generator back, so it could give the online generator a break after running for a week  (power to the site was being upgraded, hence the prolonged outage).  Had it been a diesel engined Land Rover it would have coped with towing such a heavy Gen Set.  I was promised a new Clutch being fitted, and an engine overhaul after words. 

 

The clutch had to be slipped an awful lot and you could smell it burning, to get this pretty damn heavy (200KVA+?) Gen Set, to move, as it was sitting on gravel (they should have jacked it up, and put down steel plates under the wheels)


(Not sure you can change oil on an internal combustion, gasoline powered engine, whilst it is running - anyone know?)

 

Commercial units are in no way comparable with retail. I will guarantee you that the China crap retail generators will NOT last as long as a Honda. Period. No matter how you might try to spin it. Been there, done that.

 

@ Motorhead,  you posted -  "Commercial units are in no way comparable with retail" - this goes without saying!

But do Commercial Gasoline powered Gen Sets exist- only driving relatively small Gen Sets, I think?

 

I am almost certain, that a Diesel powered Gen Set (almost regardless of where such engine was built), will run continuously and for longer and without breaking down. or needing an oil change, than a Honda gasoline engine, powering the same Gen Set (assuming it had the power/torque to be capable of running it, in the first place)!

 

 

Regardless of the size, generators may run on gasoline, diesel, natural gas, propane, bio-diesel, water, sewage gas or hydrogen.[1]
Most of the smaller units are built to use gasoline (petrol) as a fuel, and the larger ones have various fuel types, including diesel, natural gas and propane (liquid or gas). Some engines may also operate on diesel and gas simultaneously (bi-fuel operation).[2]

 

Big_boy.jpg

 

Side view of a large Perkins diesel generator, manufactured by FG Wilson Engineering Ltd.
This is a 100 kVA set.

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Monsoon

 

When in the Philippines, speak like a Filipino?

 

Thats exactly it, Dave. For them, it's a brownout. For us, power cut or black out.

 

Whether it is proper or not, it will be a hell of a lot easier to say it as they do. Because, you can bet your ass, we will not be changing the way they say it. Php 1,000 for every Php 1 of yours, for every Filipino you convert and cause them to use the term "power cut". If you think you will get a Filipno to start saying, "We had a power cut today," you have gone round the bend, mate.

I used to shake my head at this one too when I first arrived. But, now I call blackouts "brownouts" and my refridgerator is a "ref". I tell my wife to "pass by the office" on her way home when I want her to stop and see me. And worse of all, I say "sus nalang" and "putang ina" when I'm mad.

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Piste Yawa, in Cebuano, usually works well. :D




Side view of a large Perkins diesel generator, manufactured by FG Wilson Engineering Ltd.

 

Perkin's makes some good stuff, for sure.

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Piste Yawa, in Cebuano, usually works well. :D

 

 

Side view of a large Perkins diesel generator, manufactured by FG Wilson Engineering Ltd.

 

Perkin's makes some good stuff, for sure.

 

Perkins make some fine machines for sure ive spent enough time installing machines in their peterborough plant in the UK. But if you wanna see an impressive engine to run a gen set then google  ( cummins hedgehog engine ) Albon engineering ltd a company ive worked for on & off for a number of years make the con rods for this engine & pretty much any large diesel engine in the marketplace today as they have 2 production facilities here in the UK & also in Norman Oklahoma  under Albon llc. the hedgehog engine was designed to be cummins 1st foray into the 4,000 BHP sector of the market that was usually dominated by the likes of caterpillar & believe it or not after talking to a senior cummins engineer the reason the engine is called hedgehog  is because hedgehogs eat caterpillars .

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JasonEcos

 

I;ve no experience with generators but shouldn't you be able to look on your electric bill at your consumption rate then divide that by how many hours you are open to get the needed kw rating? (then of course go a bit higher to be on the safe side)

 

ANd yeah brownouts are no fun. Last year we had them near daily for a few months. It wouldn't be so bad if they did them on a schedule, then you could plan around them.

 

 

No. Here is why. The most I use is about 5 Kwh per 24 hour period, 180 Kwh per month. But, it would take a generator much larger then 5 Kilowatts to run my home. The starting power needs of the split air-con and refrigerator, would cause that to need to be significantly higher.

 

Just the 1 hp split air-con draws 2.65kw to start the compressor, and right at 1.0kw to run the compressor. Motors and compressors need about three times their rated running power added for starting them.

 

So, if you needed say 5 Kilowatts for running, you would, typically triple that for starting and extra power needs that you may have forgotten to figure in. It would be a lot more than a "bit", that you would need in reserve.

Ok, that makes perfect sense. I should have realized prior to posting....I was just thinking in lines of average power consumption, but you are correct they do need a lot more power to start.

 

As for good brand vs China crap.....it all depends on the specific unit. I've had some horrendous Chinese crap (haven't we all?) and some Chinese units that ran great. The current motor on my belt sander is Chinese and has performed better than my Japanese motor. If you know what to look for you can find some good deals on the China stuff.

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