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Entry into cebu - 1945


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If you look back, we have had a lot of idiots running our politics / military / big organisations.

 

That applies to ALL countries.

 

( From that, one can only assume that we (all) have the same proportion of idiots in control now.

It is just that it doesnt become obvious until after they are out of office.)

 

Yes, we (Brits) have had more than our fair share of complete buffoons,  All the high-ups in Hong Kong / Singapore, etc prior to the Japanese invasion just buried their heads in the sand.

 

 

As for the US military, from what I have read, Nimitz was excellent, which is more than can be said for Adm King, and Halsey was another glory-seeker. 

On land, Patton was a "wild cannon", but others, both UK and US, were, fortunately, quite capable. 

 

In the UK, we gave far too much frredom to Harris who wasted time money and lives in bomber command.

 

 

To counter that, the Axis powers also made mistakes. (In fact, a war is rearly a study of who made the most and biggest mistakes!)

Goring was a fool, and although he had proved himself as  a fighter pilot in WW1, he was not man enough for the job of running the Luftwaffe. 

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Every American here(and it wouldn't hurt for some other nationalities as well)should sit quietly on the side of the hill and look at the markers in that place and reflect a little on the sacrifices th

That story, and the many others like it, are a sad reflection on Philippine society.   Far too many people dont realise that the way to get something is to W O R K and S A V E for it.

my grandfathers brothers name is listed in manila at the cemetary as having died here in WW2 i knew that from when i was a kid and sometimes wonder if it somehow stayed in my mind and directed me to t

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Taking Formosa (the US Navy's preference) had its own problems, though. The Japanese on the Philippines could interfere with a Formosan invasion more effectively than the Japanese on Formosa could interfere with a Philippines invasion. Also, Japanese units in China were much closer to Formosa than they were to the Philippines. Formosa also has high mountains on its east coast. The US Navy just might have been wrong.

 

MacArthur and Nimitz both presented their arguments to FDR. FDR thought MacArthur was right. Perhaps Taiwan might have been better, but we'll never know.

 

I presume FDR did not side with MacArthur based on Mac's ego.

 

 

FDR sided with MacArthur because there were long term politican implications, namely that the US had, long before, guaranteed to support the Philippines and not doint so coul dbe seen as the US not keeping to their word, and thus harm future relationships with other countries.

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Taking Formosa (the US Navy's preference) had its own problems, though. The Japanese on the Philippines could interfere with a Formosan invasion more effectively than the Japanese on Formosa could interfere with a Philippines invasion. Also, Japanese units in China were much closer to Formosa than they were to the Philippines. Formosa also has high mountains on its east coast. The US Navy just might have been wrong.

 

MacArthur and Nimitz both presented their arguments to FDR. FDR thought MacArthur was right. Perhaps Taiwan might have been better, but we'll never know.

 

I presume FDR did not side with MacArthur based on Mac's ego.

 

 

FDR sided with MacArthur because there were long term politican implications, namely that the US had, long before, guaranteed to support the Philippines and not doint so coul dbe seen as the US not keeping to their word, and thus harm future relationships with other countries.

I think retaking the Philippines was the right thing to do...it was a US protectorate and it cut Japanese shipping lanes. I think the mistake was in saving MacArthur when he cornered himself at Corregidor. Instead of getting a medal of honor (for heroically running away), he should have been told to stay with his men and fight it out with the Japanese.

 

Don't forget that it was MacArthur who LOST the Philippines in the first place. The Army Air Corps commander wanted to bomb the Japanese airfields as soon as war was declared, but the higher-ups in MacArthur's command would not let him take his bombers north. Instead, MacArthur had the planes lined up in the middle of the airfields to protect them against sappers...just like they had in Hawaii. It made them perfect targets for a Japanese air attack.

 

If the US bombers had attacked the Japanese airfields in Taiwan the day before the Japanese attacked the Philippines, the battle for the Philippines may have gone much differently if the US bombers had struck the Japanese first. It also would have made a lot of difference if the planes had been dispersed to auxilliary fields. Then, rather than defending their supplies in Manila (which was more holdable than any surrounding terrain and would have forced the Japanese into urban fighting, which they were not prepared to do), MacArthur had the army relocate to Bataan Pennisula where they were cut off from the supplies and cut off from any escape or reinforcement. His reasoning was to take the fighting outside the city to keep Manila from being destroyed when the Japanese attacked...so instead of losing buildings, tens of thousands of American and Filipino fighters died as a result of his stupidity.

 

As a tactician, MacArthur was a complete idiot. As a strategic planner he was a complete idiot. I agree that every country has its idiots, and the fact that our enemies had more idiots running things than we did allowed us to be victorious in WWII. It certainly wasn't because of anything that MacArthur did.

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tom_shor

 

mobilse its massive production capacity,

Check when that started to happen. Then ask yourself if there was no sign in 1940 that the U.S. was preparing for war.

Well Roosevelt wanted the US in the war. Most Americans however did not.

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tom_shor

No. He was just a dirty old man, but then there are lots of them about!

 

Fortunately (for him) it wasnt illegal then to have a 16 year old girlfriend, (and still isnt in many countries),

 

My main objection to MacArthur was his self-gloirifcation, to the detriment of the Philippine people and the men under him, who could, and should, have had  a much better leader.

Well you aren't wrong there. The majority of the American Air Forces in the Philippines were destroyed on the ground at Clark Field hours after he had received the news of the Pearl Harbor attack.

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tom_shor

If you look back, we have had a lot of idiots running our politics / military / big organisations.

 

That applies to ALL countries.

 

( From that, one can only assume that we (all) have the same proportion of idiots in control now.

It is just that it doesnt become obvious until after they are out of office.)

 

Yes, we (Brits) have had more than our fair share of complete buffoons,  All the high-ups in Hong Kong / Singapore, etc prior to the Japanese invasion just buried their heads in the sand.

 

 

As for the US military, from what I have read, Nimitz was excellent, which is more than can be said for Adm King, and Halsey was another glory-seeker. 

On land, Patton was a "wild cannon", but others, both UK and US, were, fortunately, quite capable. 

 

In the UK, we gave far too much frredom to Harris who wasted time money and lives in bomber command.

 

 

To counter that, the Axis powers also made mistakes. (In fact, a war is rearly a study of who made the most and biggest mistakes!)

Goring was a fool, and although he had proved himself as  a fighter pilot in WW1, he was not man enough for the job of running the Luftwaffe. 

Being a morphine addict probably didn't help.

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tom_shor

 

 

Taking Formosa (the US Navy's preference) had its own problems, though. The Japanese on the Philippines could interfere with a Formosan invasion more effectively than the Japanese on Formosa could interfere with a Philippines invasion. Also, Japanese units in China were much closer to Formosa than they were to the Philippines. Formosa also has high mountains on its east coast. The US Navy just might have been wrong.

 

MacArthur and Nimitz both presented their arguments to FDR. FDR thought MacArthur was right. Perhaps Taiwan might have been better, but we'll never know.

 

I presume FDR did not side with MacArthur based on Mac's ego.

 

 

FDR sided with MacArthur because there were long term politican implications, namely that the US had, long before, guaranteed to support the Philippines and not doint so coul dbe seen as the US not keeping to their word, and thus harm future relationships with other countries.

I think retaking the Philippines was the right thing to do...it was a US protectorate and it cut Japanese shipping lanes. I think the mistake was in saving MacArthur when he cornered himself at Corregidor. Instead of getting a medal of honor (for heroically running away), he should have been told to stay with his men and fight it out with the Japanese.

 

Don't forget that it was MacArthur who LOST the Philippines in the first place. The Army Air Corps commander wanted to bomb the Japanese airfields as soon as war was declared, but the higher-ups in MacArthur's command would not let him take his bombers north. Instead, MacArthur had the planes lined up in the middle of the airfields to protect them against sappers...just like they had in Hawaii. It made them perfect targets for a Japanese air attack.

 

If the US bombers had attacked the Japanese airfields in Taiwan the day before the Japanese attacked the Philippines, the battle for the Philippines may have gone much differently if the US bombers had struck the Japanese first. It also would have made a lot of difference if the planes had been dispersed to auxilliary fields. Then, rather than defending their supplies in Manila (which was more holdable than any surrounding terrain and would have forced the Japanese into urban fighting, which they were not prepared to do), MacArthur had the army relocate to Bataan Pennisula where they were cut off from the supplies and cut off from any escape or reinforcement. His reasoning was to take the fighting outside the city to keep Manila from being destroyed when the Japanese attacked...so instead of losing buildings, tens of thousands of American and Filipino fighters died as a result of his stupidity.

 

As a tactician, MacArthur was a complete idiot. As a strategic planner he was a complete idiot. I agree that every country has its idiots, and the fact that our enemies had more idiots running things than we did allowed us to be victorious in WWII. It certainly wasn't because of anything that MacArthur did.

The decision to move to the Bataan actually wasn't a bad one however the execution was very flawed. If he had fought it out in Manila the civilian population would have suffered badly. Holdong Bataan and Corregidor denied the Japanese use of the port even though they had captured the city. Bataan was rugged terrain and should have been easier to defend than the flat land around Manila. The planners however transfered inadequite supplies as well as several other errors which put the defending forces in a worse position than they should have been.

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InternetTough

Here is an excellent link to the Formosa versus Luzon debate (from the official US Army history---the "green books"):

 

http://www.history.army.mil/books/70-7_21.htm

 

 

As expected, it was a very complicated debate inside the US military officers in the Pacific and among the US military planners in Washington. Many changed their views as time went on and the situation changed. One commonly overlooked factor that contributed to the decision not to take Formosa first was that its port space was not very adequate in comparison to that of the Philippines. A changing factor was the Japanese elimination of American air bases in China (14th Air Force)---the support of which was one of the main reasons for invading Formosa first. The idea was to invade Formosa and then use Formosa as a base from which to establish a secure US port on the mainland Chinese coast, which in turn would be used to support the air bases in China. The 14th Air Force was supposed to support the invasion of Formosa, as well.

 

In the end, it was thought that seizing a single good Chinese port would involve fighting too many Japanese that were already in China, and this would delay the invasion of Japan itself.

 

The destruction of Manila was primarily caused by the disobedience of Japanese units that were told by the Japanese commander to fight outside the city to save it from destruction. They disobeyed---a much more common problem in the Japanese military than is popularly believed in the USA---and thus brought a great destruction to Manila.

Edited by InternetTough
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The decision to move to the Bataan actually wasn't a bad one however the execution was very flawed. If he had fought it out in Manila the civilian population would have suffered badly. Holdong Bataan and Corregidor denied the Japanese use of the port even though they had captured the city. Bataan was rugged terrain and should have been easier to defend than the flat land around Manila. The planners however transfered inadequite supplies as well as several other errors which put the defending forces in a worse position than they should have been.

 

The plan to defend Bataan/Corregidor had been made years before -- the idea being that Bataan, because of its topography, was relatively easy to defend by the limited number of troops in-country, and that declaring Manila an open city was the humane thing to do). The plan, though, was based on the assumption that the peninsula would only need to be held long enough for supplies and re-enforcements to arrive from California ports, at which point a counter-attack could be launched.

 

The decision was made in Washington, however, that Europe should get priority, and that no supplies or troops would be sent to assist Bataan. Given the realities the decision-makers faced, it was probably the right choice.

Edited by Guy60417
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InternetTough

 

If you look back, we have had a lot of idiots running our politics / military / big organisations.

 

That applies to ALL countries.

 

( From that, one can only assume that we (all) have the same proportion of idiots in control now.

It is just that it doesnt become obvious until after they are out of office.)

 

Yes, we (Brits) have had more than our fair share of complete buffoons,  All the high-ups in Hong Kong / Singapore, etc prior to the Japanese invasion just buried their heads in the sand.

 

 

As for the US military, from what I have read, Nimitz was excellent, which is more than can be said for Adm King, and Halsey was another glory-seeker. 

On land, Patton was a "wild cannon", but others, both UK and US, were, fortunately, quite capable. 

 

In the UK, we gave far too much frredom to Harris who wasted time money and lives in bomber command.

 

 

To counter that, the Axis powers also made mistakes. (In fact, a war is rearly a study of who made the most and biggest mistakes!)

Goring was a fool, and although he had proved himself as  a fighter pilot in WW1, he was not man enough for the job of running the Luftwaffe. 

Being a morphine addict probably didn't help.

I think Goering would have disagreed. He'd have said it was probably the only thing that did!

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tom_shor

 

 

If you look back, we have had a lot of idiots running our politics / military / big organisations.

 

That applies to ALL countries.

 

( From that, one can only assume that we (all) have the same proportion of idiots in control now.

It is just that it doesnt become obvious until after they are out of office.)

 

Yes, we (Brits) have had more than our fair share of complete buffoons,  All the high-ups in Hong Kong / Singapore, etc prior to the Japanese invasion just buried their heads in the sand.

 

 

As for the US military, from what I have read, Nimitz was excellent, which is more than can be said for Adm King, and Halsey was another glory-seeker. 

On land, Patton was a "wild cannon", but others, both UK and US, were, fortunately, quite capable. 

 

In the UK, we gave far too much frredom to Harris who wasted time money and lives in bomber command.

 

 

To counter that, the Axis powers also made mistakes. (In fact, a war is rearly a study of who made the most and biggest mistakes!)

Goring was a fool, and although he had proved himself as  a fighter pilot in WW1, he was not man enough for the job of running the Luftwaffe. 

Being a morphine addict probably didn't help.

I think Goering would have disagreed. He'd have said it was probably the only thing that did!

Fortunately the Allies weaned him off morphine right before they were going to hang him. I guess he sort of got the last laugh on that one.

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In fact, Goering himself got off heroin (prescribed following an accident) and that shows remarkable will power.

 

What he could never do, after the death of his first wife, was to control his eating and his glory seeking. He had the largest collection of (looted) fine art and a massive train set (for which I envy him) but instead of concentrating on his work, would spend hours entertaining his subordiantes, rather that instructing them.

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