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Made in USA,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,again!


Mr. Mike

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RogerDuMond

No, Chinese making a dollar a day did.

Low wages in and of themselves was not enough to make US manufacturing companies move their operations overseas. It is a combination of that, refusal of unions to negotiate in good faith on wages, benefits, and job descriptions, and repressive business taxes. Unions had it set up where an employee had a specific job and couldn't cross over. You would need three employees to do a job that one person could do. It wasn't corporate greed, but got to a point where manufacturing companies had to move off shore if they wanted to survive.

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Made in America, what a wonderful thought. I can remember when that actually meant something. A high quality product made with pride, by a hard working workforce and a warranty that backed it up. But that has long since fallen by the wayside. Where did we go wrong?

 

It is not something that just happened over night. It was a long time in the making. Anyone that was born prior to the early 60's with one eye and half sense should have seen it coming. Who's to blame? Well, there is enough of that to go around. Greedy unions, greedy corporations, greedy lawyers, greedy politicians, greedy employees and greedy government. All this greed finally caught up with us. Not all at one time, but each of the players had their run of years and the accumulative affect is what we see today.

 

Unions had a very big part in the demise of many. Initially they did a lot of good for workers. They helped find a balance between the corporations and the employees resulting in a fair wage for a fair day

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TheMatrix

Low wages in and of themselves was not enough to make US manufacturing companies move their operations overseas. It is a combination of that, refusal of unions to negotiate in good faith on wages, benefits, and job descriptions, and repressive business taxes. Unions had it set up where an employee had a specific job and couldn't cross over. You would need three employees to do a job that one person could do. It wasn't corporate greed, but got to a point where manufacturing companies had to move off shore if they wanted to survive.

 

 

 

Everyone says buy American!! But, did you know that GM's basically requires it's suppliers to buy foreign!! Yes, that's correct. Of the many suppliers that General Motors has, it asks them to source their manufacturing offshore to decrease costs. I know because it happened to a friend of mine that is CEO of a company that supplies GM with wiring harnesses for its Buick division.

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TheMatrix

Now days when I see the sign "Made in America", I envision a sweat shop in El Paso, Texas employing migrant Mexican workers!

Anyone else feel the same?

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Now days when I see the sign "Made in America", I envision a sweat shop in El Paso, Texas employing migrant Mexican workers!

Anyone else feel the same?

 

Yes, but it is just as likely to be in New York City, Chicago or LA, but they will probably be illegal immigrants. I do not blame them for wanting a better life. I blame the employers that knowingly employ them. If the no questions, low wage employers were not giving out jobs and exploiting their illegal status, they the illegal would have a lot less incentive to cross the border. The problem is far more complex then just patroling the border. If it says, Made in America, chance are foreign hands have had some part in it. ;)

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Jess Bartone

When I was young my Father repeated to me many times that one day the unions would break America, and that China would rule the world. I didn't believe him.

Very emotive Larry, but may I ask, did it have nothing to do with the ruling class (5% of population who own 95% of the wealth) selling their own country to the Chinese? It's too easy to blame the workers, they are convenient scape goats.

 

Whatever, China does own the world now, and it was placed (un) fairly and squarely in their lap by greedy executives who were not content with being shit-kicker millionaires... they had to leave no stone unturned in their unrelenting quest for billionaire status... and laughing their guts out when the government (the paid lackeys of the ruling class) gives them even more money in "bail-outs".

 

Meanwhile middle and upper management types eagerly do their masters' bidding and spread the word that dumb-arse blue collar workers are the root of all evil... the same dumb-arses who built the very foundations of the master's wealth in the first place. What we are left with is "goods" which fail the test of time... quality and service are non-existent... spare parts can be had but the repair costs more than the new item... but hey who cares it's so damn cheap we'll just buy another one and throw the old one on the land fill.

 

 

No, Chinese making a dollar a day did.

Not to mention child labour exploitation.

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shadow

Very emotive Larry, but may I ask, did it have nothing to do with the ruling class (5% of population who own 95% of the wealth) selling their own country to the Chinese? It's too easy to blame the workers, they are convenient scape goats.

 

Whatever, China does own the world now, and it was placed (un) fairly and squarely in their lap by greedy executives who were not content with being shit-kicker millionaires... they had to leave no stone unturned in their unrelenting quest for billionaire status... and laughing their guts out when the government (the paid lackeys of the ruling class) gives them even more money in "bail-outs".

 

Meanwhile middle and upper management types eagerly do their masters' bidding and spread the word that dumb-arse blue collar workers are the root of all evil... the same dumb-arses who built the very foundations of the master's wealth in the first place. What we are left with is "goods" which fail the test of time... quality and service are non-existent... spare parts can be had but the repair costs more than the new item... but hey who cares it's so damn cheap we'll just buy another one and throw the old one on the land fill.

 

 

 

Not to mention child labour exploitation.

 

I don't think anyone other than the management is blaming the workers, per se. Would I rather earn $25/hr with full benefits pushing a broom, or $10 busting my ass repairing tractors in the mud?

 

Where's that broom?

 

LinD

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Markham

You know, America used to be the world's civilian plane maker but it's not enjoying that reputation any more. This week it's the Paris Air Show and airlines are practically lining-up at the Airbus booth to sign orders particularly for the new, very fuel efficient A320neo. The Indian budget carrier IndiGo has signed an order for 150 of them as well as for 30 A320s but even that order - claimed to be the largest single order in aviation history - may be eclipsed by an order from AirAsia for 200 A320neo aircraft with an option on a further 100.

 

Two American companies have also placed orders with Airbus at the Show: JetBlue has ordered 30 A320neos to join its existing fleet of 119 A320s and the leasing company CIT Aerospace has ordered 50 of those aircraft. American Airlines is currently negotiating with Airbus to buy 100 A320-type aircraft and Delta, US Airways and United are existing operators.

 

Airbus is confident that its signings for the A320neo will reach 1000 by the end of the week. Good news for Airbus, bad news for Boeing which has totally failed to address the competitiveness of the A320 series against its equivalent competitor, the 737. Boeing's only orders at the Paris Air Show so far appear to be for 15 737-800s for Nordic Air Shuttle and 8 777s for Aeroflot.

 

So what has gone wrong for Boeing - and is it symptomatic of US manufacturing in general?

 

 

 

 

 

Mark

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Why should the American worker take the hit in the ass with a wage decrease when middle and upper management are making 6 figures and CEO's are raking in huge bonus's ????

 

Unions are the only thing keeping America from becoming the use/them and loose/them at 40 type of manufacturing practices you see in the P.I

 

let's face it people, if workers rights and fair wages are not protected then big business will have the world working for $3 a day and nobody will have ANY money except the people who all ready have enough money to invest !!

who's going to protect those rights if we have no unions??? the government?? Don't think so !

 

 

Free in house medical care provided by the employer is one way to curb medical cost's in the states--- do a goggle for QUICK TRIP convenience stores and take a look at how its worked for them

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shadow

 

 

Unions are the only thing keeping America from becoming the use/them and loose/them at 40 type of manufacturing practices you see in the P.I

 

 

 

I don't think so. America has strong minimum wage laws and discrimination laws, and they are somewhat enforced. I agree that management has to take a hit too, but a person earning $2000/week pushing a broom is part of the problem too. What is worse, that union person pushing the broom has to have someone there with him to hold the dustpan.

 

It's time for a more level playing field. If the unions went bust there would be more money and opportunity for everyone else. Then the union person would have to work for his living right along with everyone else. They would have to have incentive and put forth effort in order to gain advancement, not just "put in the time".

 

Just my opinion.

 

Larry in Dumaguete

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InternetTough

Tell me, just tell me what is the benefit of securing East Asia for America. What was the benefit of securing it in 1950 and what is the benefit now. China was nothing like it is now in 1950, so why go to war then? Do you honestly believe that trade, either directly or via influence was not the reason?? Then why? Another attack on Pearl Harbour from North Korea or China?

 

 

 

 

The pact was finalized December 2010. Nice. Only about 55 years since the Americans were in South Korea. Yes the Koreans were really trying to be fair all those years.

 

 

 

No you are talking apples and oranges. Americans may have been outclassed by Japanese cars, although to some degree that's up for debate, and can be debated on a car enthusiast forum as the debate can be as hot as the abortion topic, the fact is that American cars were UNDERCUT by Korean cars. Not outclasses...UNDERCUT. That could NEVER happen in Korea even if Ford wanted to give their cars away for 1000 dollars in Korea. But in the US and Canada...sure, come and dump your cars here, no problem, just set up a factory in Alabama and all is good!!!. Where do the parts for this assembly plant come from? Mississippi? Ontario? Where?

 

 

 

 

Well Germany has a national health care system so their Unions and Auto manufactures don't have to worry about the costs like their US counterparts do. Its something some Americans would like to shoot ( or see him shot) Obama over just for mentioning it. I won't get into that though.

 

1. Korea was divided at the USA's request in 1945 (into separate occupation zones) because the Americans were nervous about the Soviet Union's proxy being so close to occupied Japan. Somewhat to the USA's surprise, Stalin agreed to the division. After the invasion of the South in 1950, the Truman Administration intervened in the Korean War because it did not want to replicate the 1930s, when Hitler won many bloodless victories before the shooting started. Wisely, Truman saw North Korea, China, and the Soviet Union as a functioning, aggressive, single entity. Winning some trade advantages with the pathetic Korean economy at the time was not remotely on the Truman Administration's mind. It was always about power, not business.* The USA sorely repented of its neutrality in the 1930s in the 1940s. Stopping Hitler earlier would have been so much easier. The USA wasn't so much securing East Asia for America, as securing it from aggressive totalitarianism.

 

Where real possibility of military adventurism exists in a critical region, the USA can't afford to pretend that it lives on another planet. It tried that in the 1920s and 1930s and regretted it later.

 

 

 

2. The Korea/US FTA has still not been ratified. There is a "finalized" version of it, reached in December 2010, but there was one years before that, too.

 

 

3. Korean cars are built to a higher standard than American cars are in the USA. The workers are paid well. Korea has many aggressive trade unions---they are not the company "pet" unions of Japan. The notion that they are simply cheaper than American cars is not true anymore. That sounds like the Hyundai cars of the 1980s, which were quite bad. Korean cars regularly top auto surveys in the USA like the Powers survey, for customer satisfaction. They win design awards. Korean auto workers in Korea make good money. It is true that Korea, as well as Germany, has national health insurance, and this is a competitive advantage---but that was MY point. I wanted to make it clear that Walter Reuther had a good idea of the grand strategic challenges facing auto in the USA, better than most of the Detroit auto execs, and that it was a tragedy that he wasn't listened to. The US system of business with executive pay tied to quarterly profits and the most recent stock price discourages companies from taking the long view. Having some union people in the corporate boardroom could have helped make the US businesses stronger.

 

 

*To tie this a little bit to living in the Philippines, I remember reading somewhere that money talks in the Philippines, until it runs into political power. Then power trumps money.

Edited by InternetTough
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Mr. Mike

American standard of living would drop big-time! Currently, even poor Americans can still afford quality things at Walmart because everything is made in China. Those same items would triple in price almost overnight and force the poor to go without. Their standard of living spiral to all-time lows!! We have been living good, for the most part, due to China being the World's Factory. We live high-quality lives as a result. I am sure that many of those on this forum remember the days where having a television was considered a luxury. Now days, televisions are expected to be in most rooms. (even the bathroom with line of site viewing from the bidet).

It would take many years for the economics to level out if you brought the jobs back home. Yes, wages would increase, but prices would increase several hundred percent more than wages!

The poorest folks in the US, are,by and large, better off than most of the world's truly poor. Most of our POOR have a home, AC, flat screen TV's, food stamps, cellphones and a car. We live very well in the US,,,,,maybe a little too well and we are spoiled. That said, the US can to pay a little more for products in return for the jobs returning stateside. I doubt seriously the prices would increase such that we would stop buying products. We might budget better. We might waste less. We might have to do without some luxuries for a while, heaven forbid! With the return of millions of jobs, the tradeoff would be worth it.

 

I have to add, most Chinese manufactured products, are inferior. The products look the same, yet they do not last. I understand they are supposed to be made to US standards, but they do not perform. Whether it is a coffee maker, radios, tainted children toys, linens that fade after three washings, hand tools, microwave ovens..............they are all sub par!

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fanboat

If you want to see some badass factories in the USA....watch a tv show called "How It's Made"

 

bye the way Texas is the state to watch(1 mile wide coridor to the ocean?cheap land?:coffee:

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Mandingo

Low wages in and of themselves was not enough to make US manufacturing companies move their operations overseas. It is a combination of that, refusal of unions to negotiate in good faith on wages, benefits, and job descriptions, and repressive business taxes. Unions had it set up where an employee had a specific job and couldn't cross over. You would need three employees to do a job that one person could do. It wasn't corporate greed, but got to a point where manufacturing companies had to move off shore if they wanted to survive.

 

Some good points but.............................Having grown up in a union family, and having worked in unions the first 20 years of my working life as a union member (Pulp & Paper Workers and Operating Engineers) I can safely say that very few times did I see three people doing the work that one should have been doing unless due to safety regulations imposed on us by OSHA or by our company. This is a cop out used by corporations to move overseas, use cheap labor, not have to worry about workers safety, our environment and to make larger profits.

 

I am now management at a non-union company, I see everything being done here that I saw when I was in a union shop. The big difference is union workers for the most part are able to provide better for their families, have a voice in their future and have representation if they treated unjustly.

 

I think unions are like anything else, some bad and some are good. Saying unions is what drove manufacturers overseas is just not completely correct because government regulations has a hell of a lot to do with it too.

Edited by Spacefalcon
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I don't think so. America has strong minimum wage laws and discrimination laws, and they are somewhat enforced. I agree that management has to take a hit too, but a person earning $2000/week pushing a broom is part of the problem too. What is worse, that union person pushing the broom has to have someone there with him to hold the dustpan.

 

It's time for a more level playing field. If the unions went bust there would be more money and opportunity for everyone else. Then the union person would have to work for his living right along with everyone else. They would have to have incentive and put forth effort in order to gain advancement, not just "put in the time".

 

Just my opinion.

 

Larry in Dumaguete

 

 

Larry, Where do you get that union workers make $50 an hour to push a broom?????

 

$50 an hour???-- top level manufacturing maintenance mechanics-- some energy power plant workers--- a very top end car mechanic who re-certifies every year and has the latest skills

 

I am a union truck driver, I make 20-25 hr ( 25 years exp.-doubles,triples,tanker,hazmat,air brake ) depending on the route I am driving-- wage based on amount of actual labor involved in the unloading of my cargo.

 

If I leave Kansas city and go to Des Moines Ia. I get exactly 15 minutes to stop and urinate. after I get there, I sit unpaid for 3hrs-4hrs. then return to kc--- no piss break on return trip.

so I am gone from home 11-12hrs to get paid for 8

 

SEVERAL ROUTES are cut up like this-- sit unpaid for hours but not abiding by the laws in place for BREAKS

 

Do you think I make any over time wages after 8/40 hrs of work--NO

 

We have a mandatory insurance program that all drivers must enroll in that cost's over $100 a week and don't cover shit with a huge deductible---- management get free health care on the backs of the workers WITH A SMALLER DEDUCTIBLE !!!

 

retirement???? ya right-- RETIREMENT IN AMERICA STARTS WHEN YOUR DEAD NOW

 

 

 

I think many people on this forum who have not been in the work force in a long time may be out of touch with the reality of whats really going on in the AMERICAN WORK FORCE !! Reagan won,!!!

 

Do you want to know what a union does for its workers???

 

I know a guy who came in to the terminal to go to work one day(non-union company)

 

he gets his truck goes down to the fuel bay ( daily fuel card allowance) fuels his truck and returns to the office to get his paperwork.

 

The assistant terminal manager ( whom he does not get along with due to his rude nature when speaking with people) tells him that he will be replacing another driver today and that he will be using that drivers truck.

 

so he agrees and goes and gets the other drivers truck and does his pretrip inspection--- he finds the gauge reading--LOW FUEL

 

( 1st notice)---he returns to the office and voices his findings to the assistant terminal manager and another driver in the office and is told that the fuel gauge is broken and that the truck was just fueled

 

( 2nd notice)---so he goes and loads his trailer and returns to the office to ( be signed out, again voicing his concerns over the fuel situation and is told there is plenty of fuel and to take the truck and go !!!

 

END OF STORY-- guy was fired for running out of fuel after notifying assistant terminal manager 2 times of a fuel problem

 

so tell me--- who should have been fired-- the driver or assistant terminal manager?????

 

IF THIS WAS A UNION TRUCKING COMPANY, THIS WOULD HAVE NEVER HAPPENED !!!

 

UNIONS PROTECT WORKERS AND MAKE SURE RULES AND DISCIPLINE ARE DISTRIBUTED WITHOUT BIAS !!!

Edited by KID
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