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Cary

20% of Obamacare waivers went to Pelosi

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Stranded Shipscook

A large portion of the surgeons we have recruited in the last 12 months were from Europe, a lot from Germany. If An american company offers a low paid German Dr. the chance to come to America and be a high paid American Dr., most take it. So if we get our pick, what does that leave Germany?

 

HINT: It leaves the ones we didn't want.

 

 

 

Again a fundamental error, locktite. "Large portion of surgeons". How many are large, do you have a statistic ? i relieve you of the work, its 2700. of about 800.000 total

Because there are no JOBS for them in Germany. We are full with Doctors, Surgeons and other med. Practitioners.

The other fundamental error is the motivational aspect, money is not the main reason people in Germany study medicine. But some definitely are starting to study medicine under this aspect and will most certainly study here (at a a cost of about 1 million Euro per /head and then continue their studies self financed in the US, because one can not simply come over and start to work.)

 

Hint : Which ones you get ? Answer : The Greedy ones...

 

Now, to the doctors salaries itself. Sure the USA pays the highest in the world, but who pays them ? And does it improve their life expectancy ? nope. Their general health ? nope. The people just pay more. I think, this is rather a good argument for a Universal HC system. In my opinion, doctors should NOT earn so much, as then the only motivated and devoted ones become the people which open my belly and not the guy who see me as a walking account, or as the joke goes, 'I must be real sick, because my Doctors ordered a new Mercedes Benz after i left his office".

 

and here are a few new stat's for you, i took a US one :(http://www.nia.nih.gov )

 

Country Current Estimate Estimate in 2050

Canada 81.67 85.26

France 83.50 87.81

Germany 81.50 83.12

Italy 82.50 86.26

Japan 82.95 90.91

UK 82.50 83.79

US 80.45 82.91

as it seem, the countries with Universal health care rather will have a problem with their pension insurances. (And they have !)

Edited by Guenther

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Stranded Shipscook

There are things that can be done to lower costs without the implementation of Obamacare.

 

1. Remove punitive damages from malpractice suits. Make the patient whole, but not a millionaire at our expense.

 

2. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

 

3. Expand the use of county clinics. Turn any uninsured non-emergency away from emergency rooms and send them to the county clinics.

 

4. Allow hospitals to donate part of the savings from not treating uninsured patients to the county clinics and claim it against profits. Allow doctors to donate time to clinics and take it off their taxes.

 

5. Florida has just passed a law to require all applicants for welfare and Medicaid pay for and pass a drug test. If they pass they will be reimbursed and get the assistance if not, tough luck. All states should do the same.

 

6. Allow drug companies to donate medications to clinics and take it off of their taxes.

 

7. A significant portion of the uninsured are illegals. Treat them and then deport them.

 

This is what i call a good start for a fruitful discussion and debate. Point 7 definitely make sense. or as done before, offer them 'legality". But thats another topic.

 

i see all points valid as an immediate start which everybody 9err, maybe) would agree upon.

 

And as i guess, the whole fuzz is naturally about a too fast implementation of this system. if it just could be done step by step, then people would see the benefits and maybe not react so harsh.

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Markham

A large portion of the surgeons we have recruited in the last 12 months were from Europe, a lot from Germany. If An american company offers a low paid German Dr. the chance to come to America and be a high paid American Dr., most take it. So if we get our pick, what does that leave Germany?

 

HINT: It leaves the ones we didn't want.

It also leaves those who didn't apply and there will be many, many of those. I know for a fact that Germany has one of the best health care systems in Europe, second only to France - but that does come at a cost that citizens of those countries believe is worthwhile.

 

I find it disturbing that some people think it's OK to steal my money at gunpoint to pay someone else medical bills.

On the other hand, I find it somewhat disturbing that many Americans have no problem with their tax dollars being used to buy bombs and bullets but become incensed if any of it is used to benefit their own population. Many right-of-centre Americans have posted here about their desire to become isolationist, not engage in other peoples' wars and to use the money thus saved on their own population - but that view is not consistent with Obama's health care provisions! So how do you explain that dichotomy?

 

 

 

 

Mark

Edited by Markham

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Cipro
.... and then continue their studies self financed in the US, because one can not simply come over and start to work.

 

Wrong. They cannot start work as a practicing doctor. Huge difference. We hire them as techs (there is a fancy title, it's not my dept and I forget exactly what it is) because we pay more than they could dream of earning in Europe and they work bankers hours, never have to see a sick person, and still contribute to vastly improving the lives of others by creating cutting edge (no pun intended) medical technologies that someday, after Americans get finished paying off the R&D, might even make it back home to places like Germany. When it finally gets cheap enough.

 

Did you know most German pharmaceutical research is paid for by money from the American market?

 

Maybe if socialized medicine would pull it's own weight our American medical costs would go down.

 

 

 

 

and here are a few new stat's for you, i took a US one :(http://www.nia.nih.gov )

 

Country Current Estimate Estimate in 2050

Canada 81.67 85.26

France 83.50 87.81

Germany 81.50 83.12

Italy 82.50 86.26

Japan 82.95 90.91

UK 82.50 83.79

US 80.45 82.91

as it seem, the countries with Universal health care rather will have a problem with their pension insurances. (And they have !)

 

It's idiotic to think that medical advances have more than a minor influence in longevity after age 70 or so; Okinawans are an excellent example of people who have always lived very long. The difference in life expectancy between the US and Germany can probably be partially if not mostly explained by lifestyle differences, and longevity isn't that different between the two.

 

There is a huge difference between life expectancy at birth and life expectancy at age say, 40, and I'm way more interested in the latter. Sue me.

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Cipro

It also leaves those who didn't apply ...

 

More like those who were not recruited. For good reason.

 

 

 

On the other hand, I find it somewhat disturbing that many Americans have no problem with their tax dollars being used to buy bombs and bullets ...

 

Can't answer that as I believe both pointless wars and incredibly inefficient social medicine are huge wastes of resources. Ask someone else.

 

The only systems I've seen where social medicine really works worth a damn are in Taiwan and to a slightly lesser extent Japan. There may be others but the UK and Germany are not them.

 

A man breaks into your house and robs you at gunpoint. It's because his friends wife is sick and he and all your neighbors voted and say it's for the best. How would you really feel about that?

Edited by locktite

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Cary

I have no problem at all in using my taxes to help provide healthcare to those in need. What I do mind is this giant government take over that does nothing to help with healthcare and or its cost. Obamacare when it was being debated medical experts from both sides at various times requested many of the points in Roger's post above and Obama said no. Again this was due in large part to his being in bed to this very day with the lawyer lobby and the fact that they want these multi-million dollar suits to continue. Even though, again doctors on both sides of this issue said tort reform and or the lack of it was a major force in driving up medical costs. And as for the buying of bullets and bombs. the States is not alone in that regard. So lets keep this to the topic of healthcare everyone.

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Cipro

I have no problem at all in using my taxes to help provide healthcare to those in need.

 

As long as it's not cripplingly expensive and I'm not propping up a bunch of self destructive jerkoffs. The whole system needs a reset. In the systems that work1 (as well as some that don't) the government either outright owns the facilities or regulates everything so heavily they might as well. While this does drive costs down it also removes any chance of profit, and profit is what drives innovation.

 

Also the regulations are more relaxed in most places like this as far as certifications and so on.

 

-----

 

1Work in that they provide care, eventually, for most people. They seldom if ever really pay any reasonable share of the cost of advancing medical technology. That they leave up to the Americans.

Edited by locktite

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Stranded Shipscook

Wrong. They cannot start work as a practicing doctor. Huge difference. We hire them as techs (there is a fancy title, it's not my dept and I forget exactly what it is) because we pay more than they could dream of earning in Europe and they work bankers hours, never have to see a sick person, and still contribute to vastly improving the lives of others by creating cutting edge (no pun intended) medical technologies that someday, after Americans get finished paying off the R&D, might even make it back home to places like Germany. When it finally gets cheap enough.

 

Did you know most German pharmaceutical research is paid for by money from the American market?

 

Maybe if socialized medicine would pull it's own weight our American medical costs would go down.

 

 

It's idiotic to think that medical advances have more than a minor influence in longevity after age 70 or so; Okinawans are an excellent example of people who have always lived very long. The difference in life expectancy between the US and Germany can probably be partially if not mostly explained by lifestyle differences, and longevity isn't that different between the two.

 

There is a huge difference between life expectancy at birth and life expectancy at age say, 40, and I'm way more interested in the latter. Sue me.

 

Well, if they are tech,s then they aren't doctors in my eyes. Maybe also selling pharma products or doing some testing.

And that for a million Euro per head.

In my eyes they failed the call completely. better they stay in the USA.

we actually have other doing the R&D med technology, they are called engineers and also study in the university.

However we have a grave conflict of principals here, one is the purely getting rich idea, and the other is the philosophical approach. Just try at least to imagine, that people go to university in order to do something they "have heard the call" of. this are many in Europe. i would even dare to say the majority. not that the US people are different, but when one leaves College or University with a huge debt, what choice does he have ? that is the fundamental difference. in Europe people go more or less worry free into higher education and then have the freedom to choose, because this right is granted for their children too. or at least as long as they elect the right politician to guarantee it.

see, we have learned the hard way, that everything which one has build over a lifetime, can be destroyed within a few weeks, this may have led European to change the fundamental attitude from a money oriented thinking into a value oriented one.

And you gotta believe me here, a Doctor (to stay at the subject a bit) is still a respectable person with a good income, none of them is having a low status in wealth or society. and once this is achieved, any further enrichment isn't necessary. otherwise, as said also previously (i wonder if you really read all what i try to explain ?) not so many would desire to take this subject.

Their motivation is NOT money ! now you can say, we are all socialists idiots which have not grasped the concept of being wealthy, but it does not change their attitude at all.

This is the fundamental difference... but another topic.

 

Sure i am aware that our research is paid by the US citizens,its one of our major export article. Bayer, Merck, Hoechst, Schering, BASF and whatever their name is earn kazillions with the poor lads buying their prescriptions. And get sicker in the process of taking the due to the side effect. (Gosh, i hope you not saying next we kill americans with that :()

 

yes, socialized medicine as you call it, would cut the costs, because a doctors would have to justify why he prescribes this and that and do this or that procedure. And not simply advise his patient to loose 40 kg or go jogging and eat healthier food. no pun intended, everybody is aware what causes the major health problems. But it would not bring him any money. The danger is in money... the healthier a person gets, the less income.

 

I do like the principal of capitalism, but some things should be excluded or controlled. As i mentioned earlier, health care, safety, necessary public utilities , education and many other services should not be under the aspect of profitability.

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RogerDuMond

And as i guess, the whole fuzz is naturally about a too fast implementation of this system. if it just could be done step by step, then people would see the benefits and maybe not react so harsh.

The first step took place last year when Medicare Part B and Part D cut back on procedures and medicines for seniors that were paid for the year before. My 91 year old mother who lives on Social Security, had $6,000 more out of pocket for the same procedures and medicines as the year prior due to cuts in services. She basically pays for her medical and we pay for everything else. It is a disgrace that the hardest hit group by this healthcare debacle is our seniors.

 

we have learned the hard way, that everything which one has build over a lifetime, can be destroyed within a few weeks

You forgot to add that after it is destroyed the US pays to rebuild it.

 

yes, socialized medicine as you call it, would cut the costs, because a doctors would have to justify why he prescribes this and that and do this or that procedure. And not simply advise his patient to loose 40 kg or go jogging and eat healthier food. no pun intended, everybody is aware what causes the major health problems. But it would not bring him any money. The danger is in money... the healthier a person gets, the less income.

Many doctors are refusing to take Medicare and Medicaid patients because there is no longer enough money from these entities to maintain their practice. When you figure in overhead and insurance, they actually loose money on these patients.

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Cipro

Well, if they are tech,s then they aren't doctors in my eyes. Maybe also selling pharma products or doing some testing.

And that for a million Euro per head.

In my eyes they failed the call completely. better they stay in the USA.

we actually have other doing the R&D med technology, they are called engineers and also study in the university.

 

No, that engineer would be ME. The doctors are employed in developing new uses, validation of new designs, and other tasks that you can't just send out into the world to be tested or developed by practicing doctors on human subjects. In order to understand the uses and validate the cases we need extremely competent medical professionals and a lot of those are surgeons PLUS many have additional education in legal or technical fields due to the nature of our industry. Some RNs as well and so on, a few vets for the lab critters, it's a wide mix.

 

You are aware that there is a huge and completely valid, and needed, market for trained doctors that never see a sick person right? Even without medical device companies in the picture?

 

 

 

 

Sure i am aware that our research is paid by the US citizens,its one of our major export article. Bayer, Merck, Hoechst, Schering, BASF and whatever their name is earn kazillions with the poor lads buying their prescriptions. And get sicker in the process of taking the due to the side effect. (Gosh, i hope you not saying next we kill americans with that :thats-funny:)

 

No, I'm not an adherent to wacko big pharma conspiracy theories.

 

 

 

 

I do like the principal of capitalism, but some things should be excluded or controlled. As i mentioned earlier, health care, safety, necessary public utilities , education and many other services should not be under the aspect of profitability.

 

I disagree. I don't know where you Euro people get your ideas of what life is like here but let me clue you in, if someone here is sick they see a doctor and the doctor treats them. What more do you want? Admittedly it's not perfect but the people (politicians mostly) who want to tell you it's completely broken are frankly trying to sell something.

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tom_shor

As Cary pointed out - in California they already have healthcare for the poor - the County pays for it - now where do counties get the money to pay for that healthcare - yep at gunpoint from you.

 

Because I belong to a long established single payer system (VA) I haven't paid that much attention to all the nuances of the new national healthcare plan. But I understand that everyone will be required to have a policy, that they will have to pay something for - Insurance companies will need to justify rate hikes, drugs will be cheaper.

 

As a taxpayer (unless you are a poor SOB as myself and live in the Philippines), you are going to have to pay for someone's health care anyway, won't it be better to pay less then more?

 

I doubt seriously that very many will pay less. I am sure the majority will pay more.

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tom_shor

There are things that can be done to lower costs without the implementation of Obamacare.

 

1. Remove punitive damages from malpractice suits. Make the patient whole, but not a millionaire at our expense.

 

2. Allow insurance companies to compete across state lines.

 

3. Expand the use of county clinics. Turn any uninsured non-emergency away from emergency rooms and send them to the county clinics.

 

4. Allow hospitals to donate part of the savings from not treating uninsured patients to the county clinics and claim it against profits. Allow doctors to donate time to clinics and take it off their taxes.

 

5. Florida has just passed a law to require all applicants for welfare and Medicaid pay for and pass a drug test. If they pass they will be reimbursed and get the assistance if not, tough luck. All states should do the same.

 

6. Allow drug companies to donate medications to clinics and take it off of their taxes.

 

7. A significant portion of the uninsured are illegals. Treat them and then deport them.

 

Better yet Deport them and let the Hospitals in Mexico treat them.

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