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JamesMusslewhite

A lot of Americans died during the occupation and the retaking of the Philippines who did not get shit for their efforts. What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?

 

 

 

Are you joking ? Those Americans died during the occupations so their families and loved ones don't have to eat sushi everything day ! Their efforts were for you and I and everyone else who enjoy freedom !

 

A lot of those Americans were Filipino-Americans !

 

Did you make a mistake by typing "What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?" ? Did you mean "What did the Philippines compensate these American Veterans?"

 

Just so you know American WWII Veterans had the opportunity to take advantage of the The G.I. Bill (officially titled Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. The Filipino WWII Veterans did not. They fought the same war but where not treated the same after.

So what you are saying is for the American Servicemen just knowing they were serving the better good of their country was antiquate compensation for their sacrifice. The Americans Veterans received their base pay for their sacrifice, then they left the Philippines and continued fighting the war against Japan.

 

The Filipinos do not think $9,000 is enough because they want $15,000 for doing the same thing?

 

The question I asked is simple what did the Philippines pay these same Filipino veterans?

 

 

James,

 

1. The American Born WWII Veteran that served in the Philippines durning the Second World War received for their efforts the GI Bill that every other American Veteran that served in the Pacific or European Theaters got.

2. The Philippine Islands did not become an independent nation until July 4, 1946 - I don't know if the Republic of the Philippines has honored these Philippine Veterans or not - I would hope they have.

3. The sums of $15,000 or $9,000 was offered to the Philippine War Veterans, in lieu of paying them the compensation that they were promised, but that the United States reneged on. The $15,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans that became US Citizens. The $9,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans who did not become citizens.

4. If you take a moment or two to look at the time line of WWII, the individual battles that were fought, the units that were involved in each battle, you will see that units engaged in one battle, did not move on to the next battle - for example the 1st Marine Division fought at Guadalcanal and other Islands in the Solomon Chain. The next major landing took place on Tarawa - led by the 2nd Marine Division. The next battle after the landings in the Philippines was Okinawa - March 1945 - July 2, 1945 the battle to retake the Philippines started in October (17), 1944 and ended on July 4, 1945. The war ended on August 14, 1945 - there were no more battles to be fought.

5. American units that remained in the Philippines - as POW's or guerrilla forces, did not move on to other battles - they either remained in the Philippines or were sent back to the United States. It is estimated that between 6,000 - 10,000 Filipinos died on the Bataan Death March and an equal amount in POW camps - those that escaped and went on to fight as part of the guerrilla force, many may have been killed as well - so your guess is as good as mine as to how many Veterans there were on July 4, 1945

6. The law suit only deals with specific units - this law suit doesn't cover a Filipino Steward that may have served aboard a naval vessel. A Philippine Marine Corps Veteran who may have served gallantly in Iwo Jima, is not part of this law suit. Nor is the Filipino tricycle driver that may have moved ammo from one part of Cebu to the other for the underground - they are not covered in this Law Suit The unit and men covered in this law suit are Veterans of the "Old" Scouts and the 250,000 Filipinos that were drafted in July of 1941 into the United States Army as authorized by President Roosevelt. The "Old" Scouts was an US Army unit that was established in 1901 as a Philippine Self Defense Unit - most of the officers were (White) American, most of the enlisted were Filipino - much like the all Black Army units prior to integration in 1948. As of December 7, 1941 there were about 12,000 men in the "Old" Scouts. The Law Suit is on behalf of the 262,000 Filipinos that served in these units. FYI - "New" Scouts was US Army Unit that was organized late 1945 - but disbanded on July 3, 1946. These men Are Not involved in the Law Suit - although some of the "Old" Scouts were part of the new unit.

7. The Compensation promised these men - was ONLY Medical and Disability - they were not offered, or promised educational or home buying benefits..

 

This isn't the first law suit - there have been, I believe two others - as with most law suits - decisions made in similar cases may open new opportunities in passed cases - I am not an attorney, but that is my understanding. In the current case the Veterans are suggesting that the United States did not have the Constitutional Right to make a lump sum offer - in doing so they have admitted that these Veterans should have received the compensation due them and their spouses dating back to 1945. If these Veterans accept the compensation offered, they are more or less agreeing with the Gov't that they are not owed anything for their service -

 

One more time because it seems many do not understand this - during Second World War - the Philippines was part of the United States of America - like Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, Midway, Wake etc. - they were not States of the Union - but for all practical purposes they were the United States.

 

Lastly - yes in 1945, as it is now, the cost of living between the Philippines and the United States is significant - but let's say for example that in 1945 the payment for someone who was 20% disabled (single) was $25/month - at $25 a month for 65 yrs would be $19,500 - so at the very least a non resident Filipino specific unit Veteran could get about $10500 more than what was offered - may not be much - but in todays pesos it would be about 840K - Who knows how much these men had to pay for medical care due to wounds received

 

I hope this clears it up for you -

 

Take care,

 

Mike

True, but the money is at the table now. Lawyers will tie this up for the next decade, with the average age of one of these members is 91. Do we know it it will be awash and it never makes it to the table. 9,000 is a lot of money for most Filipino, and many will not accept it just to hold out for more. This could get buried into courts, then relegated to circle-13 filing. I assume their lawyers are working Po Bono, or years of billing for legal fees could be so costly that they would not receive much if anything more in compensations.

 

In 10 years would the US government be in the situation to pay them? Would they still want to? Is it better to take the payments, and enjoy some security in their remaining days. Or never receive any assistance, and die of old age never seeing the money. Money that may not be there, or courts will require rewrite so it is sent back to the House; and added to a future docket, than ramblings and gerrymandering kills it dead in it's tracks. Ethereal.

 

This suit may very well finding themselves on the shorten end of their stick. Most of these men will be gone in 10 years. Their families will have little recourse when trying to advance their claim. I would venture to say that most of these Filipino Veterans will probably take the $9,000, most of these members live in the US. That they could win this suit, but most of these veterans or their families will ever see their money. And yes that is a shame.

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No, we were taught about the Philippine Indepedence Act (Tydings-McDuffie Act) that went into effect in 1935 initiated by one Manuel Quezon. It was the establishment of a transitional government (10-

no different then the french freedom fighters when the part of the war was done in the PHilippines the \freedom fighters went back to \their homes and the rest of the army went on to fight on another

Do you understand that the Philippines Islands at that time was an American Territory and Filipinos where Americans at the time ?   This is not only Philippine history, it is American History. Was'

 

The Americans Veterans received their base pay for their sacrifice, then they left the Philippines and continued fighting the war against Japan.

 

The Filipinos do not think $9,000 is enough because they want $15,000 for doing the same thing?

 

The question I asked is simple what did the Philippines pay these same Filipino veterans?

 

 

They did'nt need to leave the Philippines to go to Japan, the was was over with Japan.

 

Do you understand we are talking about Filipino Veterans getting $9000 and Filipino Veterans who became American citizens getting $15,000.

We are not talking about American American Veterans.

 

The Philippines was not an independent republic until after the war.

 

It is ok if you don't know the facts in history, but please make sure you Fil-Am son knows.

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A lot of Americans died during the occupation and the retaking of the Philippines who did not get shit for their efforts. What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?

 

 

 

Are you joking ? Those Americans died during the occupations so their families and loved ones don't have to eat sushi everything day ! Their efforts were for you and I and everyone else who enjoy freedom !

 

A lot of those Americans were Filipino-Americans !

 

Did you make a mistake by typing "What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?" ? Did you mean "What did the Philippines compensate these American Veterans?"

 

Just so you know American WWII Veterans had the opportunity to take advantage of the The G.I. Bill (officially titled Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. The Filipino WWII Veterans did not. They fought the same war but where not treated the same after.

So what you are saying is for the American Servicemen just knowing they were serving the better good of their country was antiquate compensation for their sacrifice. The Americans Veterans received their base pay for their sacrifice, then they left the Philippines and continued fighting the war against Japan.

 

The Filipinos do not think $9,000 is enough because they want $15,000 for doing the same thing?

 

The question I asked is simple what did the Philippines pay these same Filipino veterans?

 

 

James,

 

1. The American Born WWII Veteran that served in the Philippines durning the Second World War received for their efforts the GI Bill that every other American Veteran that served in the Pacific or European Theaters got.

2. The Philippine Islands did not become an independent nation until July 4, 1946 - I don't know if the Republic of the Philippines has honored these Philippine Veterans or not - I would hope they have.

3. The sums of $15,000 or $9,000 was offered to the Philippine War Veterans, in lieu of paying them the compensation that they were promised, but that the United States reneged on. The $15,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans that became US Citizens. The $9,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans who did not become citizens.

4. If you take a moment or two to look at the time line of WWII, the individual battles that were fought, the units that were involved in each battle, you will see that units engaged in one battle, did not move on to the next battle - for example the 1st Marine Division fought at Guadalcanal and other Islands in the Solomon Chain. The next major landing took place on Tarawa - led by the 2nd Marine Division. The next battle after the landings in the Philippines was Okinawa - March 1945 - July 2, 1945 the battle to retake the Philippines started in October (17), 1944 and ended on July 4, 1945. The war ended on August 14, 1945 - there were no more battles to be fought.

5. American units that remained in the Philippines - as POW's or guerrilla forces, did not move on to other battles - they either remained in the Philippines or were sent back to the United States. It is estimated that between 6,000 - 10,000 Filipinos died on the Bataan Death March and an equal amount in POW camps - those that escaped and went on to fight as part of the guerrilla force, many may have been killed as well - so your guess is as good as mine as to how many Veterans there were on July 4, 1945

6. The law suit only deals with specific units - this law suit doesn't cover a Filipino Steward that may have served aboard a naval vessel. A Philippine Marine Corps Veteran who may have served gallantly in Iwo Jima, is not part of this law suit. Nor is the Filipino tricycle driver that may have moved ammo from one part of Cebu to the other for the underground - they are not covered in this Law Suit The unit and men covered in this law suit are Veterans of the "Old" Scouts and the 250,000 Filipinos that were drafted in July of 1941 into the United States Army as authorized by President Roosevelt. The "Old" Scouts was an US Army unit that was established in 1901 as a Philippine Self Defense Unit - most of the officers were (White) American, most of the enlisted were Filipino - much like the all Black Army units prior to integration in 1948. As of December 7, 1941 there were about 12,000 men in the "Old" Scouts. The Law Suit is on behalf of the 262,000 Filipinos that served in these units. FYI - "New" Scouts was US Army Unit that was organized late 1945 - but disbanded on July 3, 1946. These men Are Not involved in the Law Suit - although some of the "Old" Scouts were part of the new unit.

7. The Compensation promised these men - was ONLY Medical and Disability - they were not offered, or promised educational or home buying benefits..

 

This isn't the first law suit - there have been, I believe two others - as with most law suits - decisions made in similar cases may open new opportunities in passed cases - I am not an attorney, but that is my understanding. In the current case the Veterans are suggesting that the United States did not have the Constitutional Right to make a lump sum offer - in doing so they have admitted that these Veterans should have received the compensation due them and their spouses dating back to 1945. If these Veterans accept the compensation offered, they are more or less agreeing with the Gov't that they are not owed anything for their service -

 

One more time because it seems many do not understand this - during Second World War - the Philippines was part of the United States of America - like Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, Midway, Wake etc. - they were not States of the Union - but for all practical purposes they were the United States.

 

Lastly - yes in 1945, as it is now, the cost of living between the Philippines and the United States is significant - but let's say for example that in 1945 the payment for someone who was 20% disabled (single) was $25/month - at $25 a month for 65 yrs would be $19,500 - so at the very least a non resident Filipino specific unit Veteran could get about $10500 more than what was offered - may not be much - but in todays pesos it would be about 840K - Who knows how much these men had to pay for medical care due to wounds received

 

I hope this clears it up for you -

 

Take care,

 

Mike

True, but the money is at the table now. Lawyers will tie this up for the next decade, with the average age of one of these members is 91. Do we know it it will be awash and it never makes it to the table. 9,000 is a lot of money for most Filipino, and many will not accept it just to hold out for more. This could get buried into courts, then relegated to circle-13 filing. I assume their lawyers are working Po Bono, or years of billing for legal fees could be so costly that they would not receive much if anything more in compensations.

 

In 10 years would the US government be in the situation to pay them? Would they still want to? Is it better to take the payments, and enjoy some security in their remaining days. Or never receive any assistance, and die of old age never seeing the money. Money that may not be there, or courts will require rewrite so it is sent back to the House; and added to a future docket, than ramblings and gerrymandering kills it dead in it's tracks. Ethereal.

 

This suit may very well finding themselves on the shorten end of their stick. Most of these men will be gone in 10 years. Their families will have little recourse when trying to advance their claim. I would venture to say that most of these Filipino Veterans will probably take the $9,000, most of these members live in the US. That they could win this suit, but most of these veterans or their families will ever see their money. And yes that is a shame.

 

I agree totally - but maybe they are fighting the ruling on principle - maybe unlike us Americans that have been spending much of the last week arguing whether these men deserved the compensation or not, they are telling the US Federal Gov't to F themselves - there have been 6 Democrat and 5 Republican Administrations since the end of the Second World War and none of them has ever taken responsibility of honoring a commitment made.

 

Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here -

 

Have a nice day

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I would venture to say that most of these Filipino Veterans will probably take the $9,000, most of these members live in the US.

 

 

If they are Filipinos then most likely they are not living in the US.

 

There are Filipino-American Veterans who are suppose to receive $15,000 agree that the Filipino Veterans should receive the same amount of $15,000 and that is why a lot of the Filipino-American Veterans are not accepting the payment until their Filipino brothers receive the same.

 

It is not only about the money, it is about being recognized as equals.

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The Rescission Act was not the first US betrayal of a promise.

 

Filipino nationals who served with the United States Armed Forces during World War II, were entitled to United States citizenship through the Nationality Act of 1940.

 

The Nationality Act of 1940 was a promise by to Filipinos to able to obtain US citizen after they enlisted in the US Army and were assigned to the 1st and 2nd Filipino Infantry Regiments.

 

But after WWII was over, in September of 1945, US Attorney-General Tom Clark issued an order revoking the authority of Vice Consul George Ennis, the naturalization officer at the US Embassy in Manila, for a 9-month period between October 1945 and August 1946. Vice Consul George Ennis was NOT able process the naturalization applications of Filipino soldiers who were eligible to apply for US citizenship under the Nationality Act of 1940.

 

9-month absence of a 702 naturalization officer violated the 1940 Act and deprived the Filipino Veterans of rights secured by the Fifth Amendment.

 

The Attorney General

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smokey

I would venture to say that most of these Filipino Veterans will probably take the $9,000, most of these members live in the US.

 

 

If they are Filipinos then most likely they are not living in the US.

 

There are Filipino-American Veterans who are suppose to receive $15,000 agree that the Filipino Veterans should receive the same amount of $15,000 and that is why a lot of the Filipino-American Veterans are not accepting the payment until their Filipino brothers receive the same.

 

It is not only about the money, it is about being recognized as equals.

 

 

 

they have already received the money months ago /// and this may come as a huge shock to everyone but all governments are bullshitters , if you had a peso for every time a government did not follow through with something it said you would be a very rich person

Edited by robert51
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JamesMusslewhite

A lot of Americans died during the occupation and the retaking of the Philippines who did not get shit for their efforts. What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?

 

 

 

Are you joking ? Those Americans died during the occupations so their families and loved ones don't have to eat sushi everything day ! Their efforts were for you and I and everyone else who enjoy freedom !

 

A lot of those Americans were Filipino-Americans !

 

Did you make a mistake by typing "What did the Philippines compensate these Filipino Veterans?" ? Did you mean "What did the Philippines compensate these American Veterans?"

 

Just so you know American WWII Veterans had the opportunity to take advantage of the The G.I. Bill (officially titled Servicemen's Readjustment Act of 1944. The Filipino WWII Veterans did not. They fought the same war but where not treated the same after.

So what you are saying is for the American Servicemen just knowing they were serving the better good of their country was antiquate compensation for their sacrifice. The Americans Veterans received their base pay for their sacrifice, then they left the Philippines and continued fighting the war against Japan.

 

The Filipinos do not think $9,000 is enough because they want $15,000 for doing the same thing?

 

The question I asked is simple what did the Philippines pay these same Filipino veterans?

 

 

James,

 

1. The American Born WWII Veteran that served in the Philippines durning the Second World War received for their efforts the GI Bill that every other American Veteran that served in the Pacific or European Theaters got.

2. The Philippine Islands did not become an independent nation until July 4, 1946 - I don't know if the Republic of the Philippines has honored these Philippine Veterans or not - I would hope they have.

3. The sums of $15,000 or $9,000 was offered to the Philippine War Veterans, in lieu of paying them the compensation that they were promised, but that the United States reneged on. The $15,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans that became US Citizens. The $9,000 was offered to those Philippine Veterans who did not become citizens.

4. If you take a moment or two to look at the time line of WWII, the individual battles that were fought, the units that were involved in each battle, you will see that units engaged in one battle, did not move on to the next battle - for example the 1st Marine Division fought at Guadalcanal and other Islands in the Solomon Chain. The next major landing took place on Tarawa - led by the 2nd Marine Division. The next battle after the landings in the Philippines was Okinawa - March 1945 - July 2, 1945 the battle to retake the Philippines started in October (17), 1944 and ended on July 4, 1945. The war ended on August 14, 1945 - there were no more battles to be fought.

5. American units that remained in the Philippines - as POW's or guerrilla forces, did not move on to other battles - they either remained in the Philippines or were sent back to the United States. It is estimated that between 6,000 - 10,000 Filipinos died on the Bataan Death March and an equal amount in POW camps - those that escaped and went on to fight as part of the guerrilla force, many may have been killed as well - so your guess is as good as mine as to how many Veterans there were on July 4, 1945

6. The law suit only deals with specific units - this law suit doesn't cover a Filipino Steward that may have served aboard a naval vessel. A Philippine Marine Corps Veteran who may have served gallantly in Iwo Jima, is not part of this law suit. Nor is the Filipino tricycle driver that may have moved ammo from one part of Cebu to the other for the underground - they are not covered in this Law Suit The unit and men covered in this law suit are Veterans of the "Old" Scouts and the 250,000 Filipinos that were drafted in July of 1941 into the United States Army as authorized by President Roosevelt. The "Old" Scouts was an US Army unit that was established in 1901 as a Philippine Self Defense Unit - most of the officers were (White) American, most of the enlisted were Filipino - much like the all Black Army units prior to integration in 1948. As of December 7, 1941 there were about 12,000 men in the "Old" Scouts. The Law Suit is on behalf of the 262,000 Filipinos that served in these units. FYI - "New" Scouts was US Army Unit that was organized late 1945 - but disbanded on July 3, 1946. These men Are Not involved in the Law Suit - although some of the "Old" Scouts were part of the new unit.

7. The Compensation promised these men - was ONLY Medical and Disability - they were not offered, or promised educational or home buying benefits..

 

This isn't the first law suit - there have been, I believe two others - as with most law suits - decisions made in similar cases may open new opportunities in passed cases - I am not an attorney, but that is my understanding. In the current case the Veterans are suggesting that the United States did not have the Constitutional Right to make a lump sum offer - in doing so they have admitted that these Veterans should have received the compensation due them and their spouses dating back to 1945. If these Veterans accept the compensation offered, they are more or less agreeing with the Gov't that they are not owed anything for their service -

 

One more time because it seems many do not understand this - during Second World War - the Philippines was part of the United States of America - like Hawaii, Alaska, Guam, Midway, Wake etc. - they were not States of the Union - but for all practical purposes they were the United States.

 

Lastly - yes in 1945, as it is now, the cost of living between the Philippines and the United States is significant - but let's say for example that in 1945 the payment for someone who was 20% disabled (single) was $25/month - at $25 a month for 65 yrs would be $19,500 - so at the very least a non resident Filipino specific unit Veteran could get about $10500 more than what was offered - may not be much - but in todays pesos it would be about 840K - Who knows how much these men had to pay for medical care due to wounds received

 

I hope this clears it up for you -

 

Take care,

 

Mike

True, but the money is at the table now. Lawyers will tie this up for the next decade, with the average age of one of these members is 91. Do we know it it will be awash and it never makes it to the table. 9,000 is a lot of money for most Filipino, and many will not accept it just to hold out for more. This could get buried into courts, then relegated to circle-13 filing. I assume their lawyers are working Po Bono, or years of billing for legal fees could be so costly that they would not receive much if anything more in compensations.

 

In 10 years would the US government be in the situation to pay them? Would they still want to? Is it better to take the payments, and enjoy some security in their remaining days. Or never receive any assistance, and die of old age never seeing the money. Money that may not be there, or courts will require rewrite so it is sent back to the House; and added to a future docket, than ramblings and gerrymandering kills it dead in it's tracks. Ethereal.

 

This suit may very well finding themselves on the shorten end of their stick. Most of these men will be gone in 10 years. Their families will have little recourse when trying to advance their claim. I would venture to say that most of these Filipino Veterans will probably take the $9,000, most of these members live in the US. That they could win this suit, but most of these veterans or their families will ever see their money. And yes that is a shame.

 

I agree totally - but maybe they are fighting the ruling on principle - maybe unlike us Americans that have been spending much of the last week arguing whether these men deserved the compensation or not, they are telling the US Federal Gov't to F themselves - there have been 6 Democrat and 5 Republican Administrations since the end of the Second World War and none of them has ever taken responsibility of honoring a commitment made.

 

Maybe there is a lesson to be learned here -

 

Have a nice day

 

 

 

Yep 11 Administrations, and this bill goes to rewrite in the House, how many administrations will it take to surface again? At the average age of 91 the government only has to drag one or two administrations and there will be no one left to receive the funds. You do not think the government is not fully aware of that? WW2 LSD, VD, and Nuke test exposed 10,000s if not 100,000s of veterans who received no medical treatment compensations. Benton Musslewhite (a cousin) represented the US Vietnam Veterans suffering from Agent Orange, before they received aid and treatments, Vietnam vets, Gulf War syndrome sufferers, and now those Vets of the Iraq and Afghan wars still are fighting for just a little consideration. This is nothing new. Blame the US civilian citizenry, because when American vets are begging for what was promised to them, they sit back and do not really try to help support the Vets.

 

The 1945-46 US citizens did not feel they should have to pay those Filipino Vets monies for a Country they were handing over. Blame our Grandfathers and Great Grandfathers for that one. The money is on the table now. They can accept it for what it is, or try and be demanding and decide to stand on pride and bold principles, but in the end the government really does not care. One should realize what appears as a little victory, sometime is the only victory their will be. This issue is a hot button because you are Pinoy at heart, but the truth is few Americans care when they are unemployed, loosing their homes, downsizing their lives due to economic down turns. Most Americans will not care about 5,000 to 6,000 surviving war veterans in the country that the US government recognizes as genuine World War II veterans by .PVAO records. USDVA is only looking for some 20,000 Filipino veterans listed in the so-called Missouri list who are even qualified to benefit from this US financial package. And most of the survivors from that list are living in the US.

http://www.philstar....ubCategoryId=63

 

There is an old Texas saying about business,

"The meat on the table, wait all you like, but don't complain later if you have to fight for briskets."

Edited by JamesMusslewhite
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JamesMusslewhite

The Americans Veterans received their base pay for their sacrifice, then they left the Philippines and continued fighting the war against Japan.

 

The Filipinos do not think $9,000 is enough because they want $15,000 for doing the same thing?

 

The question I asked is simple what did the Philippines pay these same Filipino veterans?

 

 

They did'nt need to leave the Philippines to go to Japan, the was was over with Japan.

 

Do you understand we are talking about Filipino Veterans getting $9000 and Filipino Veterans who became American citizens getting $15,000.

We are not talking about American American Veterans.

 

The Philippines was not an independent republic until after the war.

 

It is ok if you don't know the facts in history, but please make sure you Fil-Am son knows.

Yes I know about the history of the Philippines, and my son going to High School here will know. But 99% of Americans don't know or care. My wife tried 14 months ago to help two family members process their forms. I pulled all the forms and instructions off the official websites, and found satellite locations were they were done in Butwaan instead of having to travel to Manila, I know the only ones considered were off the Missouri List. and only 20,000 were ever under consideration.

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how 'bout all us vets stop arguing history, second-guessing liars (er, ah, lawyers), dissin' vets and just get together to shoot some lawyers?

Lawsuit: A machine which you go into as a pig and come out of as a sausage. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary<BR sab="231">

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how 'bout all us vets stop arguing history, second-guessing liars (er, ah, lawyers), dissin' vets and just get together to shoot some lawyers?

Lawsuit: A machine which you go into as a pig and come out of as a sausage. ~Ambrose Bierce, The Devil's Dictionary<BR sab="231">

 

 

 

as the Eagles sang in "Get Over It"

 

"...old billy was right Let

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