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JamesMusslewhite

PT Boat - "Devil Boats" - style hulls

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Oz Jon

Very impressive… but must be very expensive! :) Gunther’s been telling me that I should buy a cat, guess he is sailing a cat from CA to Australia I think… Anyway, I am going to Puerto Rico early next month to look at a 40ft motorsailor. I don’t know if I buy it but it would be a challenge to bring it to Subic Bay (as my waterfront vacation house)… It got a big enough fuel tank to motor it from the west coast to Hawaii but I am not sure as I have no blue water experience (sailed only on Lake Michigan)...

 

OMG!

 

Without experience in handling that particular boat in a variety of wind and sea conditions and without someone with seagoing experience on board you will be taking very big risks.

 

You also need to have appropriate equipment on board and plan how to deal with nasty scenarios. (storm/typhoon? engine failure? collide with a log/container, holing a hull?, approaching ship alarm, etc)

 

A 2nd hand boat WILL have a few bugs (even a new boat) that you will need to deal with.

Mid ocean isn't a good place to fix things or learn boat handling!

In the Pacific there are very few safe harbours to run to if things go wrong.

 

The sea is awesome and very unforgiving.

Mid voyage, you are on your own! - don't count on getting any help.

 

Some people are big risk takers  (some to the point of stupidity) - don't join them - get some experience first and find an experienced crew member to join you. Best to find 2 or more crew - you will get pretty tired with a smaller crew

Edited by Oz Jon
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miles-high

Some people are big risk takers (some to the point of stupidity) - don't join them - get some experience first and find an experienced crew member to join you.

Thank you for your advice! I would ask Gunther (or someone who's done it many times before) to bring it here (with or without me) or just put it in a container and ship it to Guam or Hong Kong... But having heard of the recent fatal accident (of a brand new 70ft sailing boat), Hong Kong Subic may even be too far for me... I will go to Puerto Rico to look at it but probably would end up buying a flying toy, the mechanics of which I know a little more... :D

Edited by miles-high

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Oz Jon

Thank you for your advice! I would ask Gunther (or someone from Tsuneishi) to bring it here (with or without me) or just put it in a container and ship it to Guam or Hong Kong... But having heard of the recent fatal accident (of a brand new 70ft sailing boat), Hong Kong Subic may even be too far for me... I will go to Puerto Rico to look at it but probably would end up buying a flying toy, the mechanics of which I know a little more... :D

 

If you were just going to get it up to USA (gulf of Mexico) that would be fine (lots of safe harbour bolt-holes en-route).... but   ... The Pacific Ocean that's a whole different ball game!

 

 

Experienced sailors can (and do) do it - but it's not a place for learners (in an unfamiliar, untested boat) without good help.

 

Cheers!

 

ps. Panama-Hawaii 5000mls (500hrs at 10kts = 21 daysx24hrs) .... then another 5000mls to the Phills!

Edited by Oz Jon

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Bill H

The PT style hull was designed in a time when fuel economy was not even a consideration.  These hulls are certainly nostalgic, but the require massive engines to obtain that 70mph hull speed James is referring to and massive engines burn massive amounts of fuel.  Any hull form which is planned to exceed hull speed is considered a planing hull.  A planing hull raises up on top of the water (actually on top of the bow wave to be precise), thus reducing resistance and allowing the hull to travel very fast.  The down side is the amount of HP it takes to accomplish this and of course high HP = high fuel consumption.

 

In today's world, I think the better choice is a trawler type hull form, which will not go nearly as fast, but will also not burn nearly as much fuel.  For the math inclined members, hull speed is defined by this equation:  Hull Speed = SQRT LWL*1.34, where LWL is the hulls length at the water line, SQRT is the square root.  The 1.34 constant is actually for sailboats and displacement hulls, you can use 1.5 for semi-displacement power boat hull forms.

 

Catamarans are the go to design when lots of living area is desired.  However, CATS are very susceptible to over loading and do not handle additional cargo well, they are by definition lightly built.  As will all multi-hulls, CATS are more stable upside down than right side up, unlike mono-hulls which are more stable right side up than upside down.  In a heavy sea, a mono-hull will right itself and continue the voyage.  A CAT or Trimaran will remain upside down until it sinks or you can find a crane to turn it over again.

 

For a whole variety of reasons when you are considering building any boat which is longer than 15m the boat building media of choice is probably steel or Aluminum.  (If the proper Aluminum alloy can be obtained.)  There are as many reasons not to build in wood as there are to build in metal in my view.  The biggest of those is this:  very few wooden boats can survive being driven onto a reef or the rocks, while most metal boats will escape with minimal damage.  Plastic (glass) boats are popular for one reason and one reason only.  It is the only boat building material that lends itself to mass production.  When building a glass/plastic boat you build a master mold and from that turn out hundreds even thousands of duplicates.  Metal, wood and ferro-cement is more a one off process and thus slightly more expensive to build with.  That said, the Origami method of metal boat building has substantially reduced the time to build the hull and is certainly worth consideration if you don't require a round bilge.

 

I'm off my soap box now...have fun!

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colemanlee

 

 

That said, the Origami method of metal boat building has substantially reduced the time to build the hull and is certainly worth consideration if you don't require a round bilge.

 

Never heard of the Origami method.....

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Oz Jon
As will all multi-hulls, CATS are more stable upside down than right side up, unlike mono-hulls which are more stable right side up than upside down. In a heavy sea, a mono-hull will right itself and continue the voyage. A CAT or Trimaran will remain upside down until it sinks or you can find a crane to turn it over again.

 

Now!, now! Bill, don't raise that old chestnut again!

I presume you are talking about a cruising cat, not an off-beach cat or a racer. They flip frequently - all part of their game!

 

You are quite correct that a cat is more stable upside down than the right way up - that's why experienced sailors avoid tipping them over!

 

I'll give you the classic response: -

Tell you what though - in the unlikely event of a capsize, I'd much prefer to be on an upturned cat than on a holed monohull yacht! - Lol!

 

I've sailed my (or my mate's) cat in 50knot winds and 10m seas without even looking like capsizing - you have to know what you are doing though in those conditions - no room for errors - same goes for a monohull (power or sail) in the same conditions!

 

Anyway, there is no way that a cruising-type cat would overturn in James's application.

ie.cruising the Phills Islands (not much more than day-sailing, island-hopping, in good weather)

- unless he was absolutely stupid about grossly overloading it, over-canvassing it, or sailing in a typhoon.

 

Cheers!

Edited by Oz Jon
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colemanlee

I bow to both Bill H and Oz Jon in your depth of knowledge in sailing craft...back in the day, it was my dream to do the same...but alas work and other things got in the way...did some research back then, and always ended up back at the Valiant 40....still think it would be a great boat....

 

 

post-16622-0-96557500-1444886873_thumb.jpg

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Oz Jon

I bow to both Bill H and Oz Jon in your depth of knowledge in sailing craft...back in the day, it was my dream to do the same...but alas work and other things got in the way...did some research back then, and always ended up back at the Valiant 40....still think it would be a great boat....

Very nice - I volunteer for crew! - as an  Aussie bar-steward? - Lol!

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JamesMusslewhite

Only marginally "on-topic" in response to something you wrote James, so I won't pursue this further on this thread.

 

I don't have any 1st hand experience with it - maybe other LinC members do? (in a new thread?)

I decided to start a new thread on the subject of earth work construction and fired and adobe bricks. I moved your previous 3 posts on the subject over to that new thread as to not clutter this thread with off-topic responses. I know there are probably many members who would be quite interested in this subject and any useful information provided further here on the subject would be lost in a boat thread. I know myself I have a lot of information I could add about the subjects, and I am sure that you as well as other members would as well. It is an excellent topic and certainly deserving a thread..

 

 

Link to new thread:

http://www.livingincebuforums.com/topic/87938-home-construction-using-mud-brick-or-compressedrammed-earth/#entry1127410

Edited by JamesMusslewhite

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miles-high

it was my dream to do the same...but alas work and other things got in the way...did some research back then, and always ended up back at the Valiant 40....still think it would be a great boat

I am looking at this Cheoy Lee 43 Motorsailer... 2 controls, one inside and the other out, single engine but with a 500gal + fuel tank, air conditioned with a gen set...

 

main2.jpg

 

But I guess not... :D

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Oz Jon

I am looking at this Cheoy Lee 43 Motorsailer... 2 controls, one inside and the other out, single engine but with a 500gal + fuel tank, air conditioned with a gen set...

 

attachicon.gifmain2.jpg

 

But I guess not... :D

That's very nice too! - a good size for ocean cruising - same crewing offer if you save your pennies and buy it! - Lol!

 

Slicing through the waves, silently under sail at 5-10kts is a great feeling! A back-up (hungry) engine if you really need it.

 

And cruising the Phills is a magnificent experience - many ports and bays and so many wonderful out-of-the-way places, only easily accessible by boat. Plenty of sheltered places to wait out bad weather. You can do the same in a much smaller boat (under 30-35 ft)

 

Rarely use the engine. Catch fish or buy fresh, cheap fish, crabs, etc off fishermen who come alongside in their one-man bancas.

 

Hard to beat that!

Edited by Oz Jon
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PhilsFan

I managed PT 728 out of Key West back in 03 and 04. They are incredibly uncomfortable down below in hot humid weather and as mentioned elsewhere, extremely thirsty with fuel... the hull just is not that efficient I am afraid. They tend to be pretty wet when the wind and waves are up...a good soaking is not uncommon. 

 

It sure was a blast doing power slides at 40+ mph and Torpedo runs in Key West harbor though!

 

The best days on PT 728 were when we could give tours and rides to the sailors who used them in combat back in the day. The look in their eyes when they got off the boat..re-living all the memories of combat, of their buddies who died beside them....well lets just say you don't forget the experience of meeting those Hero's. 

 

A common nickname for the PT boats was "Mosquito Fleet" due to buzzing Japanese-held Islands at night... spraying the shorelines down with 50 cal and the Orelikon cannon. You didn't take PT out except at night...it was too easy to get caught out by a passing plane.

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PhilsFan

Here's a Pic of me on the Bow of PT 728 we were out meeting the USS Ronald Reagan as they were doing a 48 hour leave before heading for war with Iraq. Initially, Reagan hailed us and would not let us within 10,000 meters due to our 50 cals and (fake) torpedo tubes. We escorted the Captains gig in to harbor and also did some high speed runs on the Ferries bringing the Sailors in for shore leave. Every night USS Reagan would invite us right up alongside so the tourists could see the Flag ceremony..quite a treat!

post-8255-0-39714500-1444978735_thumb.jpg

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PhilsFan

That's very nice too! - a good size for ocean cruising - same crewing offer if you save your pennies and buy it! - Lol!

 

Slicing through the waves, silently under sail at 5-10kts is a great feeling! A back-up (hungry) engine if you really need it.

 

And cruising the Phills is a magnificent experience - many ports and bays and so many wonderful out-of-the-way places, only easily accessible by boat. Plenty of sheltered places to wait out bad weather. You can do the same in a much smaller boat (under 30-35 ft)

 

Rarely use the engine. Catch fish or buy fresh, cheap fish, crabs, etc off fishermen who come alongside in their one-man bancas.

 

Hard to beat that!

I have a British Moody 33 Sloop that I would love to sail over to have with me in Mindanao, its the perfect size and draft for Phils.

I just cant justify the time and expense required for a trip all the way from Minnesota! better to sell it and buy something already in the Phils...lots of guys want to get out of there boats once they have already traveled the world.

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Oz Jon

I have a British Moody 33 Sloop that I would love to sail over to have with me in Mindanao, its the perfect size and draft for Phils.

I just cant justify the time and expense required for a trip all the way from Minnesota! better to sell it and buy something already in the Phils...lots of guys want to get out of there boats once they have already traveled the world.

 

Pretty difficult to sail it to the Phils starting from Minnesota! - lol!

 

Even starting from west coast USA you would be looking at about 8,000mls (1,600hrs @ 5kts = 66 days, minimum) - a serious voyage!

 

Have you looked into freighting it to maybe HongKong or Guam and sailing from there?

 

I guess that you could get the hull (probably not the mast?) in a 40ft container?

 

Any idea (roughly) what the sea freight cost for a 40ft container would be?

 

Probably cheaper to buy a boat in the Phils, HongKong, Singapore, Thailand or Malaysia?

 

[corrected the rhumb-line distance - still a long way!]

Edited by Oz Jon

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