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Paul

2_little_time,

 

I can't speak for the others, but for me... I pay out a hell of a lot more than that each year, to do what I can to help others here. So, if this benefits even one person in this country, for me... that makes it worthwhile.

 

It's like I said in post #26, above, maybe it will help others to sharpen their language skills. God knows, many Filipinos have contributed to helping me learn Cebuano. Why would I not try to give back to them?

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Thirteen months have elapsed since Nick started this thread inviting members to invest in his Cebuano e-books project and he's had use of his investors' money for approaching one year. The money advan

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thebob

2_little_time, I don't thing you understand the structure or objectives of the project. The grammar and dictionary are tools that do not exist, that will help the creation of books, that investors see a need for.

 

I see an investment in this project as producing a return that is more valuable than books and Pesos.

 

As mentioned, this thread is for people willing to invest in an obviously well thought out project, with the objectives clearly stated. I don't find your opinions of it's "financial" success to be relevant to my decision to invest in this venture. Sometimes payback comes in other ways.

 

I'm looking forward to the meeting on the 8th.

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2_little_time
2_little_time, I don't thing you understand the structure or objectives of the project. The grammar and dictionary are tools that do not exist, that will help the creation of books, that investors see a need for.

 

I see an investment in this project as producing a return that is more valuable than books and Pesos.

 

As mentioned, this thread is for people willing to invest in an obviously well thought out project, with the objectives clearly stated. I don't find your opinions of it's "financial" success to be relevant to my decision to invest in this venture. Sometimes payback comes in other ways.

 

I'm looking forward to the meeting on the 8th.

 

First of all, the grammar and dictionary books do exist. They are freely available on the internet.

Changing the format does not create something new.

 

Yes, it is your choice how to spend your money, but if it's charity work that you want to invest in, then I would think there are many other projects that would have a higher quality impact. The only local people that this project will benefit is the transcribers.

 

In my opinion, the project is far from "well thought out". Also, I must have missed those objectives .

 

What I am pointing out, is that this and MUCH more is already freely available, but I can pretty much guarantee that very few people avail themselves of those items, and they are FREE !

 

So if the project is to employ some local people to transcribe thousands of pages of a very complex document, and market it as something very few people would be interested in, then state that in your objective.

 

BTW, the Peace Corp has an excellent document that is FREE, and will teach you Cebuano if you really are interested. Also, the Mormons have a pretty good course. The course that Nick will be selling is also available free, so what compels someone to purchase it?

 

I am just being realistic. How is Nick going to print a 2,000 page document and be able to sell that for $50. All the other worthwhile Cebuano books that one must pay for go for hundreds of dollars, and they do not even come close to being 2,000 pages.

 

In e-book format, he may be able to sell a few, but nowhere the amount to cover everything he stated that he plans to do.

 

His other endeavor to translate public domain books ( probably from Gutenberg project ) into Cebuano is also flawed. In my experience, students want english books, so they may perfect a language they are not quite fluent in. I also do not believe his findings that there is a wide audience for classics translated in Cebuano. If he wishes to posts his findings and methods of determining that fact, then I will stand corrected.

 

In any event, if you and the other "investors" feel comfortable spending your money, then so be it.

 

My previous job entailed extensive work with PDF documents, from Nick's posts, I can see that he does not have a grasp of everything involved in accomplishing what he wants.

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Bi-lingual books are not new here in the Philippines. I actually bought some before as a present for my friend who lives in the US. She wanted some Filipino myths and folklore stories for her daughter. The books are quite affordable, too. Less than 100pesos at National Bookstore.

 

http://www.adarna.com.ph/product.php?sortf...sc&itype=30

 

Thank you Misty. I know for a fact that bi-lingual books are popular here and having more of them to choose from available will make even more of a difference. Reading a text book or a phrase book is boring, but when it is fun and exciting, you learn the information easier and quicker. This is impotant especially in the case of Enlish which is considered to be the hardest language to learn.

 

 

I have been reading Nick's posts about his project to convert a manuscript to a usable format, and which he hopes will bring enough income to pay for the project and possible turn a profit.

 

I had to step in here and say that although his efforts are commendable, I seriously doubt that he will sell enough copies to even break even.

 

The manuscripts are no big secret. They are freely available on the internet.

Prof. John U. Wolff is quite noted for his work in all aspects of Philippine languages.

Cornell University is the depository of these documents, and any one can freely download a PDf copy of most of Prof. Wolff's work.

 

Yes, it is no secret that the works he did for Cornell can be freely downloaded from their Southeast Asian Studies Program website, but you also have to remember that he did not actually work at Cornell as he was a professor at Yale and not all of his works ended up in Cornell's Archives. The dictionary itself comes with 1 addendum in printed form which is available as a dictionary, the obvious type which is very compact and contains more then 3,000 characters per page. That is roughly 6 times the amount of characters found in a story book or novel's page which is why we don't go around reading dictionaries. But there were also 2 more addendums created which never made it to print because the project had been stopped. They were not even sent to Cornell They were sitting at Yale in their archives

 

But you do bring up an important point... Why would anyone want to purchase something that can be freely downloaded? Why would anyone be crazy enough to buy the printed book of White Fang at the book stores when it is obvious that they can download it from Gutenburg.org? Well that's simple... not everyone likes e-books. As a computer engineer, I love computers but I despise e-books and will not read them. A printed book if you are looking for something you can easily turn the page. You can see the entire page at one time and you can also turn stacks of pages all at once. In a e-book, you can really only see part of the page and unless you use the page selector box, you have to scroll one page at a time. So why would anyone want a printed book when they can use an e-book instead? Well why not ask Paul? He has the Cebuano-English Made Easy which was only available in printed form but has gotten the permission to make the digital form as well, so he offers both and guess what, the printed form out-sells the digital one because most people want something they can carry around and read easier.

 

2_little_time,

 

I can't speak for the others, but for me... I pay out a hell of a lot more than that each year, to do what I can to help others here. So, if this benefits even one person in this country, for me... that makes it worthwhile.

 

It's like I said in post #26, above, maybe it will help others to sharpen their language skills. God knows, many Filipinos have contributed to helping me learn Cebuano. Why would I not try to give back to them?

 

John Wolff was an excellent linguist. He worked as a professor at Yale. But let's face it, for those of us who went to college, professors are very good at overly-complicating things. You will see at the meeting/get-together. The dictionary as you are aware was done by him, but the simple fact that he used examples makes it more of a vocabulary book. A vocabulary book is always better then a dictionary in my opinion because it shows you real-world examples. Besides, dictionary are too compressed and they make the print as small as possible to cram as many characters into one page that they possibly can. Ok, so it was a dictionary... a very out of date one that still talks about Marcos as being the president of the nation in many of the examples. But the fact remains that dictionaries are really boring and I am not going to read it from cover to cover. But a vocabulary book is a lot less boring and is a whole lot easier to read. Sure it is a lot of pages, entries and examples. But like you said, this is for learning a language. If anyone thinks that a 200 page phrase book is enough to make them completely fluent in a language, then by all means, there are many excellent phrase books out there including Cebuano-English Made Easy. But alas, they will never help you more then what is written inside the covers. You may learn a single sentence for which you can memorize and use over and over again, but no one wants to be a broken record and you need to be able to do more then just give instructions in Cebuano. There is an entire language there and you should learn it so you can have conversations with the locals.

 

Matter of fact, I remember one thing you would hear everyone say to visitors in the states. How does it go... Welcome to America... Learn the Language! If you are living in another country, it is respectful to learn and speak their language. Phrase books are a great way to get you started, but you will never become fluent from them. Above all though, I agree with you 100%. I live in the Philippines. I no longer live in the states where the language is English (or American for those of us who are British as I do not want to start an argument there). Here the language is Filipino and other local languages, mostly Cebuano though. I would like to learn Cebuano, but if you think I am going to shell out several hundred dollars for those other programs that can be downloaded you have another thing coming. I do not read e-books and I cannot stand them. I stare at a computer screen long enough every day, I do not need to add more time staring at a screen and jeopardize my eyesight in the process.

 

Filipinos are always willing to give a helping hand no matter what the task is as long as they are able to do so. For me it just makes sense to give them something back, by simply showing them respect and speaking their language. It is after all their country and I am but a mere visitor to it.

 

2_little_time, I don't thing you understand the structure or objectives of the project. The grammar and dictionary are tools that do not exist, that will help the creation of books, that investors see a need for.

 

I see an investment in this project as producing a return that is more valuable than books and Pesos.

 

As mentioned, this thread is for people willing to invest in an obviously well thought out project, with the objectives clearly stated. I don't find your opinions of it's "financial" success to be relevant to my decision to invest in this venture. Sometimes payback comes in other ways.

 

I'm looking forward to the meeting on the 8th.

 

Hey Bob, looking forward to see you there too. It appears as if it will just be me, you, Diver Douglas and Paul there. The other investors will not be able to make it because they have other things to do or just do not live here.

 

The dictionary itself does exist here, just not in this form. It used to be distributed here in the Philippines, but not since the end of the Marcos Regime. You can purchase Cebuano to English dictionaries here for upwards of $100 or more, but most do not contain any real life examples. You can purchase them for under P100 here but they are only a couple hundred pages long and contain very few words in them and no examples (they look like the glossary of a text book if anything) The grammar on the other hand is not available here. Cebuano is considered by the government to not be a language here. The Department of Education only teaches students English and Filipino. For that reason, there is no Cebuano Grammar books. They have Filipino ones, but they are not really in-depth per say. They have English ones that are just as complex as the ones remember from our on school days, but since Cebuano is not officially recognized by the government, Cebuano Grammar books do not exist. This leaves Filipino Families having to teach the next generation based on what they know about the language making it ever evolving with each new generation.

 

For a foreigner, there is always something available because we are all filthy stinking rich and have more money then we could ever spend right? There are all sorts of course that range from as little as $100.00 to as much as $500.00 Most of them only come in digital form and some of them are basically worthless all together. I remember learning English in school... Lets see... We had roughly 1 new English book every single grade which works out to be 12 textbooks with a total of somewhere around 500 pages each so about what like 6,000 pages in all and that was mostly just the grammar portion. The vocabulary was done through any number of classes like creative writing, language arts and more. Heck, we even had vocabulary in our math and science books too. So that has got to be a whole lot more. The point is that I am trying to make, is that if some one is under the impression that they can become the most fluent Cebuano speaker possible with a 200 page phrase book they have a lot to learn. If one thinks that they can become completely fluent with a 1,000 page book, I highly doubt it. If I had recorded every single conversation that my wife and nanny has with my daughter teaching her Cebuano, then I would guarantee that by the time she becomes fluent in her own language, it will work out to be a whole lot more then a million pages.

 

The manuscripts are more then 50 years old and a whole lot has changed since then. While the syntax and structure may still be the same, there has been a greatest incorporation of English grammar into the Cebuano Language.

 

If you were to take one of John Wolff's examples and translations, and then ask a local to translate the same exact example in Cebuano as they know it, the difference will be quite amazing. The language has gone through drastic changes in 60 years, but having a good sturdy backbone to start from makes all the difference.

 

I don't expect to become a millionaire from these. That was never the intention to begin with. All I want is to be able to offer someone who is actually interested in learning Cebuano a complete set of information that will help them to be better speakers in the language. Matter of fact, I think I have stated many times already on this thread, that I am not actually going to make a dime from these two books; of which I plan on selling in a set for $50 (half of any of the cheapest currently available Cebuano Language program, which I had bought and tied and found it to be a complete waste of money) and also half the cost of a standard un-abridged Cebuano to English Dictionary. I am not going to make a dime on these, after paying off the investors, every single penny from every single copy will be spent into making the bi-lingual books.

 

 

I would like to publicly thank all of those who have shown a real interest in investing and I do have the requested investors now. So this thread is basically finished but I would like to keep it up for updates.

 

Now on the other hand, The concept with these books is in general respect to the Filipinos who have allowed us to stay here and who are willing to go out of their way (and no always because they want money either). Everyone on this forum knows that there are just some grumpy foreigners here that do not care about anyone but themselves. They are here to make a quick buck, to live cheaply or to take advantage of the people's warm hospitality. We all see them every day, they walk around on the streets with their head down trying their hardest not to look anyone in the eyes and ignoring everyone they pass. There is obviously those too who will never learn a single Cebuano word because they just do not want to, but it makes you wonder... Would they be the first person to scream out at a visitor their home country to learn their language before opening their mouths? I am a firm believer that when in someone else's country, it is proper and respectful to use the local language. While I personally have tried and tried to learn the language, the grammar lacked each and every single time. While I can put short sentences together, I am afraid my 2 year old daughter speaks Cebuano 10 times better then myself. Furthermore, I would ask that no one takes any offense to any of my statements after the quotes because I was merely trying to bring up important parts of others posts but then got sidetracked in my response as I often do.

 

Now I would like to point out that as a new member, 2_little_time, it is interesting to find that you joined and immediately after joining you jumped on this thread and started bashing it (and posted links here as well). You have also been warned about posting links in accordance with this website's TOS (terms of service). Furthermore, the bottom of your first post contains HTML code which has SPAM written all over it. 2 out of 4 of your posts have been here, one has been deleted for breaking the TOS and one has been a rebuttal against the post deletion; so I can only summize that you are most likely the owner of the one website(binisaya.com which is ran through a privacy registrar in Toronto which most likely means that the owner is a marketer who runs several or possibly even thousands of websites from which to make money online) for which you posted the link for asking people to fix the OCR mistakes of the documents that you have scanned out of the kindness of their heart. I am giving a job to a Filipino, not asking them to hop online at an internet cafe which costs them money to do something out of the kindness of their heart.) By all means, continue to offer things for free online, the same things that I plan on offering, but also keep in mind that in accordance with Filipino Copyright laws and the fact that these two books once completed will be copyrighted in the US as well as in the Philippines before their official release as a derivative work. They will not be the same as the originals because unfortunately the originals are very outdated and in my opinion almost obsolete.

 

But like I said, in previous posts, I am always welcoming new members and more then willing to debate on things. I have been in the Philippines since 2005. I came here less then 3 months after graduating college. I am only 29 now. I come from large cities and for those who are used to hearing me on these forums have come to a realization that I do not really act on impulsiveness (other then my responses to posts) and that I do think things out on a normal basis, but those that have met me can attest that I speak fast. Too fast in many cases. So in trying to type at 40 words per minute and write down things that are running through my mind at more then 120 WPM never works out as a complete statement. Furthermore, I am most definitely not an English major. If it were not for the built-in spell checker and grammar checker in Windows Word, I would never make money online because I am one of the worst spellers I know. This is also why I have asked each and every single person who has shown an interest in investing to meet with me face to face, because there are many variables associated with it that are far easier to explain in person and hand's on to actually show them what will be done before I would even allow them to invest.

 

Now as far as the translations of Gutenburg.org books in Public Domain, these are not technically part of the investment but I have included the concept of them for my own reasons. Now you do seem to be an intelligent person who understands stuff. So I will be quite frank with you. Number one, the investors are not investing in the translations what-so-ever. They are investing in the Cebuano Language program that I have been asked to put together. As far as my findings and research into the translations, we have a concept in the states called a "need to know basis" which in all simplicity means that since I am not asking for investors on the translations, I will not disclose more information about that particular project then one needs to know. Nor do I feel the need to have to explain to anyone anything especially when they immediately choose to insist that they are better then another, for which you have done throughout all of your posts on this thread. I could really care less as to what your previous job regarded, shoot my previous job was working at Dominos Pizza, but then again, I was in college, and had to pay for things some how without actually interrupting my education with a regular nine to five job. Let's not forget that even Misty said that bi-lingual books sell here in the Philippines. But of course as a new member you do not realize just how many Filipinos are on these forums do you. If the translation project was to be an experiment or some other form of study then you would be able to read it at some point in MIT's regular letter, but it is not and really none of your business. Now I said enough and I am sure that this last bit will be read by Paul as well as the moderators and your User will be watched for Spam in the future.

 

-Nick

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2_little_time
I am afraid my 2 year old daughter speaks Cebuano 10 times better then myself.

 

And the reason is "immersion" not from reading any books, as I doubt your 2 year old has read the Cebuano grammar books.

 

Just as we all learned our native language, it is from hearing it every day. I do not remember one lesson from all those English books from my school days, yet I am quite capable of putting together an intelligent sentence.

 

The books you will publish will only interest a few people, as you have stated, few have any serious desire to become fluent in Cebuano.

 

The important aspect of learning a language is immersion and repetition. Hearing the language spoken is far more effective then reading about it. That is why Rosetta Stone is a popular program, although quite expensive, and is probably the most requested language program on the "warez" sites.

 

I can not even imagine reading a 2,000 page document, when most of us are still learning the basics. I challenge you to find even 20 people that are so advanced in learning Cebuano that your document would benefit them.

 

When you have mastered the Peace Corp manual, then maybe the works of Prof Wolff will be of value. Trying to conquer the complex before the easy, is backwards, and you will soon lose interest.

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2_little_time

kc8ual wrote:

Well that's simple... not everyone likes e-books. As a computer engineer, I love computers but I despise e-books and will not read them.

 

yet you wrote:

 

I am expecting the finished Cebuano Vocabulary and Cebuano Grammar books (almost 3,000 pages between the two) to be only $50 for the set as an e-book available right here through LinC.

 

A 3,000 page e-book? I can feel my eyes glazing over already.

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And I also wrote if you were paying attention, that they would not be one, but 3 to 4 books as a set that were also to be available in printed form a little later. See now you are just not making sense at all and it is no longer an intelligent debate. You are not reading anything and have been jumping to conclusions to make yourself seem more important or to somehow get a reaction, so how is this a reaction, you have just been reported to the site administrators and moderators as a troll (I hope you actually know what that is you can read about it in the forum terms of service TOS or rules whatever you wish to call it). In 5 posts, you have broken two of those rules repeatedly. Bye Bye.

 

-Nick

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Markham
English is the HARDEST language in the world to speak. Every rule we have in grammar, we have another rule to contradict it and in some cases another rule that will contradict both the first and second rules.

I disagree with you about that. For non-native speakers, Welsh is recognised as being one of the world's hardest languages to learn and ranks above English in this respect. Welsh grammar and spelling changes according to how a word is used. For example: Cymru and Gymmru both mean "Wales" but would be used in different contexts. Mutation is rife in Welsh.

 

English is a comparatively easy language to learn but - and here I do agree with you - grammatically and lexically-correct English is far more difficult to master.

 

Mark

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All I want is to be able to offer someone who is actually interested in learning Cebuano a complete set of information that will help them to be better speakers in the language.

That's what interested me. I have a hard copy of Wolff's Beginning Cebuano part two I haven't been able to get a copy of part one. I have a comprehension problem with part 11 some things don't make sense. I also have Tom Markings pdf which the Mormons use but I don't use it anymore as my Cebuano Teacher keeps correcting what I use from that source as being wrong or awkward or illformed.

 

I hired a tutor and am very happy with that however I do want a resource book on Cebuano I can refer to one that I can trust to compliment what I am learning.

 

I would wait until the product was available before speculating on its usefulness.

 

 

The important aspect of learning a language is immersion and repetition

I agree and also I would add knowing the structure is very helpful for adult learners.

 

As for business ideas and failures I have experience in that and it still doesn't stop me from trying things. Why should it stop Nick from trying things because you can see some obstacles. A lot of people are lazy or very busy and if someone puts things together for them in a convenient package they will go for it.

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I disagree with you about that. For non-native speakers, Welsh is recognised as being one of the world's hardest languages to learn and ranks above English in this respect. Welsh grammar and spelling changes according to how a word is used. For example: Cymru and Gymmru both mean "Wales" but would be used in different contexts. Mutation is rife in Welsh.

 

English is a comparatively easy language to learn but - and here I do agree with you - grammatically and lexically-correct English is far more difficult to master.

 

Mark

 

My apologies. Thanks for pointing that out Mark, My mistake, it is the mastering of the language. I am a native English speaker and I can honestly say that I suck at my own language. I cannot spell for crap and sometimes putting together a sentence is just a pain. I can understand, speak and most people can understand me, but I am no master of English no matter how you choose to look at it. I need spell checkers and grammar checkers everyday to work or otherwise without them I would never make a penny online.

 

:)

 

-Nick

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bikerdave

2 Little Time Who are you. You obviously didnt just stumble on to this site. If you have a personal problem with kc8ual take it up with him not by spewing your negativity around here. Use your real name and stand up for yourself. Let the man pursue his dream.

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2_little_time

Nick, I have read all your posts, and if you had been reading mine, you would see that I know you plan to publish hard copies.

 

I am not a troll, I have not attacked you, I don't expect to get "a reaction" from any one.

 

If your project can't stand any scrutiny, then I guess you must have some fears.

 

In my business I welcome all input, be it good, bad, or something I do not agree with.

I am not all knowing, so when someone points out something that I didn't realize, I sure

would not dismiss that fact because it was something I didn't want to hear or that I

didn't like.

 

bikerdave, and who are you?

No, I just didn't stumble onto this forum. I have no issue with Kc8ual. If you can point out where

I attacked him, I would appreciate that. I am giving my opinion about his project. I thought that

was allowed in this forum.

I am far from stopping him from doing anything he pleases, which I doubt that I could anyways.

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Writing a 2000 page comparative grammar treatise will be an excellent academic exercise. It should keep your mind and laptop occupied for months, if not years.

 

Unfortunately it is unlikely to produce a financial return. This may not be a concern to you.

 

What could be a concern is that the finished paper/book will be of little or no practical use to someone wishing to speak or understand Cebuano.

 

Grammar based language teaching has been a spectacular failure wherever it has been employed.

 

If you walk into a class of forty university students in Japan or China, you will be lucky to find a handful that can hold a simple conversation or construct a grammatically correct sentence. They will have been studying English grammar for ten years or more.

 

The few that can speak good English have either spent time overseas being 'immersed' in English or spent a fortune on conversational English classes.

 

For anyone wanting learn Cebuano, using a simple phrase book for things like shopping and asking directions would be best to start with.

 

Once your ear has become attuned to the Cebuano sounds, joining conversational Cebuano classes like the ones conducted by Angie would be good.

 

The French have a saying. "If you want to learn French, take a French lover."

 

As I prefer one-on-one instruction I will be using this strategy when I get to Cebu.

 

Many of us have expensive, time consuming hobbies, and if this project is something you find enjoyable, I wish you luck. I will continue to support Japanese camera manufacturers.

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thebob

sensei and 2_little_time welcome to the forum. I notice that you both are new here and have made just a few posts.

 

This thread is not a discussion on the 'merits' of producing a cebuano grammar and vocabulary text, it is about finding people who are willing to invest in one.

 

You are more than welcome to start a new thread discussing the former if you want to, but this is not it.

 

sensei, I think your grasp of the use of this material is somewhat lacking, but remember this thread is not concerned with the uses to which this material will be put. They have already been explained.

 

If students have been studying English grammar, why would you expect them to be conversationally competent?

 

By the way, your strategy for language acquisition will work very well if you want to speak like a whore.

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Paul

thebob, I owe you a beer for that post. Hell, I may owe you two! :)

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