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SkyMan

Interesting piece arguing against inverter split AC

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savarity

I lived on the 6th floor of a condo in Cebu City with an inverter split unit for 2 years. Lots of repairs, think the repair/maintenance company had to come by about 8 times, but not from gekkos shorting out boards.

Now, live with box regular unit in a larger apartment. So far the electric bill has been about the same. The inverter split was quieter though. Sort of, eventually it started causing noise and that was one of the repairs.

Back in the US, only had experience with box regular units. Spray them out once a year and they last for a long time.

So, just based on my limited experience, I'd stay with the regular type.

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Jester

Not a local expert.  Did 3 DIY mini splits in Florida USA.  Spent a lot of time doing due diligence before  buying or installing.

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Ozepete

There is a lot of merit in the issues raised in Skyman's link.  The benefits of the inverter system are grossly exaggerated with many comparisons simply relating to replacing an older system with an inverter type and that doesn't take into account the improvement of co-efficiency etc that can be applied to both / all new refrigeration. We installed five conventional (Chinese!) splits in this and five in the last home we built here in hot parts of Oz and not one has even blinked. As a fridge guy I did my homework / observation and also concluded that with the extra cost and service issues inverter types didn't stack up for us. JMO. 

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Goetz1965

Usually it says 12-16sqm room needs 1HP, 16-24sqm needs 1.5HP and so on.My advice is, for 12-14sqm 1HP is ok, 14-16 you should already go for 1.5 - until 20sqm, then you should already consider a 2HP over 20sqm.

Why that ? Its easy - the more the Aircon has to work the less it will shut down ! Especially the non-inverter types are often underdimensioned - that way they run 100% and nearly never shut off - this your bill will be high.
Just buy a bigger Aircon that will cool more efficient and you will lower your bill.



 

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smokey

Granted everyone loves lower bill but to suffer the heat to save seems counter productive to enjoy your old age.  My last bill was 25.400 peso after the shock wore off it was replaced with so what i deserve it the time to me to save save is when your 50 years old but at 68 i say save for who

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Semper paratus
7 minutes ago, smokey said:

Granted everyone loves lower bill but to suffer the heat to save seems counter productive to enjoy your old age.  My last bill was 25.400 peso after the shock wore off it was replaced with so what i deserve it the time to me to save save is when your 50 years old but at 68 i say save for who

That's what I say at 75 years young. Save for who ? And why ? Let them earn their own money,  My plans are to be cremated quickly but not slow roasted:cooking:.  I may be a nut but not a honey roasted peanut. An accountant friend of mine used to say, if you don't die broke you did not make good use of your money while you were alive. I am on target as far as I can tell. :oldtimer::ROFLMAO:

 

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SkyMan
37 minutes ago, smokey said:

Granted everyone loves lower bill but to suffer the heat to save seems counter productive to enjoy your old age.  My last bill was 25.400 peso after the shock wore off it was replaced with so what i deserve it the time to me to save save is when your 50 years old but at 68 i say save for who

But the article is saying that if you use a smaller non-inverter you'd save on the initial purchase and the operating cost in the long run so it's win-win. I've been living here 8 years wo AC and done fine but the new house may need it.

Edited by SkyMan

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Headshot

Last year, I replaced my two non-inverter AC units with same-sized inverter AC units. I was having constant maintenance issues with the non-inverter units even though they were only six and seven years old. My VECO bill was over 12,000 pesos per month. After I replaced the units, my VECO bill has been approximately 7,000 pesos per month. I haven't had a single maintenance issue since the units were changed out. At 5,000 pesos per month savings, it doesn't take very long to pay for the new units I had installed during the change-out. I don't know much about AC, but I know savings when I see them.

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smokey
6 minutes ago, Headshot said:

Last year, I replaced my two non-inverter AC units with same-sized inverter AC units. I was having constant maintenance issues with the non-inverter units even though they were only six and seven years old. My VECO bill was over 12,000 pesos per month. After I replaced the units, my VECO bill has been approximately 7,000 pesos per month. I haven't had a single maintenance issue since the units were changed out. At 5,000 pesos per month savings, it doesn't take very long to pay for the new units I had installed during the change-out. I don't know much about AC, but I know savings when I see them.

What happened to dont fix it if its not broke ? The new units claim to save. UP TO 30% but buy and install like solar has a take time to break even which looks like an investment with benefits after break even time which for me sounds like gambling

Edited by smokey

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Headshot
1 hour ago, smokey said:

What happened to dont fix it if its not broke ? The new units claim to save. UP TO 30% but buy and install like solar has a take time to break even which looks like an investment with benefits after break even time which for me sounds like gambling

Read my post again. We were having maintenance issues with the non-inverter units. In other words, as far as I was concerned, they were broke. With the electricity we are saving, the investment will pay for itself in less than two years. That doesn't sound like much of a gamble to me.

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oztony

From the link in the original post 

Quote

Conventional air conditioners do not have these high power, lizard electrocuting, self-destructing boards.  We had a visit from a friend from Australia.  They have exactly the same problems with geckos shorting out inverter units.

I disagree with the above ... constant speed units do have PCB's (printed circuit boards) and are just as prone to lizards getting onto them as inverter units are , I had a constant speed unit fail on Negros at my house so I opened it up and found a gecko fried across the board so I removed it and was lucky enough that the fuse had blown on the board so just replaced the little glass fuse and the unit fired up.

I would bet most the problems in the Philippines would be installer related ... sure it all works good on the day , but did they get a minimum 500 micron vacuum in the copper lines before they released the gas into the system .... did they use a vacuum pump at all ? or is the compressor pushing and pumping a heap of air around the system as well as the refrigerant ? And is the power a constant 240 feed or are there times where it drops due to demand .. location or whatever ? Has unit got it's own dedicated circuit/feed from the supply board or did they just tap into the general power in the house somewhere ? Did they use the right size cable/wire or is it the stuff you would run a light bulb off of ?

Me , I don't mind constant speed ... copeland scroll compressor .... hell , we went and replaced 2 compressors on a chiller imported from China not long back and they were branded "copalend sorcll" so they couldn't even copy the name correctly ... much less the intricate quality workings inside the compressor ....

One thing I have noticed in the PI is that the quality even on branded items does not seem to be the same quality as the same branded items we receive in our own country's. 

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SkyMan
2 hours ago, Headshot said:

Last year, I replaced my two non-inverter AC units with same-sized inverter AC units. I was having constant maintenance issues with the non-inverter units even though they were only six and seven years old. My VECO bill was over 12,000 pesos per month. After I replaced the units, my VECO bill has been approximately 7,000 pesos per month. I haven't had a single maintenance issue since the units were changed out. At 5,000 pesos per month savings, it doesn't take very long to pay for the new units I had installed during the change-out. I don't know much about AC, but I know savings when I see them.

What brand are the new ones?

One point that might be worth mentioning is that if you're on solar or contemplating it, I would think the inverter type would be better as you aren't going full on with the compressor all the time.

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Ozepete
1 hour ago, oztony said:

From the link in the original post 

I disagree with the above ... constant speed units do have PCB's (printed circuit boards) and are just as prone to lizards getting onto them as inverter units are , I had a constant speed unit fail on Negros at my house so I opened it up and found a gecko fried across the board so I removed it and was lucky enough that the fuse had blown on the board so just replaced the little glass fuse and the unit fired up.

I would bet most the problems in the Philippines would be installer related ... sure it all works good on the day , but did they get a minimum 500 micron vacuum in the copper lines before they released the gas into the system .... did they use a vacuum pump at all ? or is the compressor pushing and pumping a heap of air around the system as well as the refrigerant ? And is the power a constant 240 feed or are there times where it drops due to demand .. location or whatever ? Has unit got it's own dedicated circuit/feed from the supply board or did they just tap into the general power in the house somewhere ? Did they use the right size cable/wire or is it the stuff you would run a light bulb off of ?

Me , I don't mind constant speed ... copeland scroll compressor .... hell , we went and replaced 2 compressors on a chiller imported from China not long back and they were branded "copalend sorcll" so they couldn't even copy the name correctly ... much less the intricate quality workings inside the compressor ....

One thing I have noticed in the PI is that the quality even on branded items does not seem to be the same quality as the same branded items we receive in our own country's. 

I was communicating with a boat owner in the phils who had a local fridge mechanic on-board to repair his freezer unit. I told the owner to have the mechanic connect the vacuum pump. He said the mechanic wants to know 'what is the vacuum pump'!!!  WTF!    I too believe many systems both in the phils and elsewhere are very inefficient due to poor service / install practices. With air left in the system they are also doomed to a short life span. 

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oztony
2 minutes ago, Ozepete said:

I told the owner to have the mechanic connect the vacuum pump. He said the mechanic wants to know 'what is the vacuum pump'!!!  WTF! 

:cry: What ???  Ah ... OK this is in the Philippines  :rofl: , 

Just imagine the butchery that occurs everyday with A/C installations .... half the equipment is doomed as soon as it leaves the shop , people are probably in a safer bet just getting window type units , no doubt some guys know what they are doing and do it correctly but in the land of "this short cut is cheaper" are you gonna be lucky enough to jag a decent technician....

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fred42
Quote

Usually it says 12-16sqm room needs 1HP, 16-24sqm needs 1.5HP and so on.My advice is, for 12-14sqm 1HP is ok, 14-16 you should already go for 1.5 - until 20sqm, then you should already consider a 2HP over 20sqm.

 

Our units are mainly 1 HP window type A/C`s and are 35sq mtrs..In 5 years,no complaints so we stick with them!

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PeteHK

I have mentioned on a couple of earlier threads our experience with a/cs and other appliances and electrical fittings.  We have progressively switched from wall mounted a/cs to split inverter type.  We have six in total, five Panasonic and one Hitachi.  One Panasonic was bought second hand from a relative leaving Cebu - the rest were bought new.  We also have an inverter refrigerator and washing machine.  All our light bulbs are LED, mostly 5w or 7w.  Before we switched to inverter appliances our Veco bill was usually around P13,500-14,500 per month.  Now it is usually around P8,000-9,000 and this is with running the machines more than we used to do because we want to feel more comfortable especially in the evenings during the really hot season.

We have had only one issue with one of the Panasonic machines which is that the small motor that controls the opening and closing of the front vents jammed and we are still waiting for a replacement.  The machine works fine otherwise.

The calculation I have used to estimate the cooling requirement in each room is one I think originates in Australia and it is basically the volume of the room (NOT the floor area - rooms with different ceiling heights can have very different cooling requirements) so length x breadth x height of ceiling x 6 (to give the BTU cooling need).  I am not an aircon expert so I cannot vouch for the credibility or validity of this formula.  All I can say is that it seems to work for us.  

We have not had any gecko issues although we certainly have them around and can see them easily enough at night.

One other issue in our house was that the original a/c fitting points in the external wall were located only about 8-10 inches about floor level.  This made no sense to me at all as I thought the cooling effect would be much more pronounced if they were set much higher up in the wall.  Anyway, with the split units this issue has been effectively dealt with.

So yes we have spent quite a bit on our energy saving efforts but for us I feel they have worked pretty well.

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Headshot
4 hours ago, SkyMan said:

What brand are the new ones?

One point that might be worth mentioning is that if you're on solar or contemplating it, I would think the inverter type would be better as you aren't going full on with the compressor all the time.

Hitachi

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smokey
5 hours ago, Headshot said:

Read my post again. We were having maintenance issues with the non-inverter units. In other words, as far as I was concerned, they were broke. With the electricity we are saving, the investment will pay for itself in less than two years. That doesn't sound like much of a gamble to me.

Ok but i have no maintence problems so far after 14 years my units are trane and installed in the ceilings and we have a ac guy to service them 3 times a year

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Jester
8 hours ago, smokey said:

Ok but i have no maintence problems so far after 14 years my units are trane and installed in the ceilings and we have a ac guy to service them 3 times a year

If your systems are the old R22 should last a long time.  The new ones are R410A and run at extreme high pressure and are a completely different animal, requiring proper install. 

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Jester

The only thing I know about AC charts is they are completely useless and far too often oversize equipment, which is a very bad thing in hot humid weather.   The charts should be removed from the net!  One chart told me to put 30,000 btu into an area served by a 12,000 btu mini! 

The inverter mini's modulate, a 9000 btu unit will run between 2000 and 11000 btu.  which can compensate some for over sizing, but they are more efficient working at the higher btu.  They also start at a low setting and ramp up, another saving. 

In the west a load calculator is used,  it is no longer a rule of thumb or the installers best guess.  Down to a science!   Do not know what they have in the P's? In US a manual J is used and many areas require a manual j before issuing a permit. 

This is a whole house calculator and is Manual J based! 

http://www.loadcalc.net/

 

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Raven

The solution, to Tiki or salt-moisture, should be a quite simple process... When I worked in the Electronic Manufacturing business, some 35 years ago, we coated the circuited boards, which was to be placed in challenging environments! 

"Conformal coating material is a thin polymeric film which conforms to the contours of a printed circuit board to protect the board's components. Typically applied at 25-250 μm[1](micrometers) thickness, it is applied to electronic circuitry to protect against moisture, dust, chemicals, and temperature extremes." Wikipedia

 

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SkyMan

I was thinking maybe just squeezing out a tube of clear silicone sealant onto any boards before installing to keep geckos and whatever from making contact.  I don't think it's conductive but not sure if it might cause heat problems?  Also may attract ants or something to eat it?

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Ozepete
46 minutes ago, SkyMan said:

I was thinking maybe just squeezing out a tube of clear silicone sealant onto any boards before installing to keep geckos and whatever from making contact.  I don't think it's conductive but not sure if it might cause heat problems?  Also may attract ants or something to eat it?

If you can pickup a can of Elmotherm 009-0008 Spray  or Elmotherm VA00 Clear 400 you can conformal coat any PCB's. Give a couple of coats to be sure.

If I lived in the phils with its high humidity, I would want to put spray coatings on all PCBs etc. Great stuff, we use on marine refrigeration system PCBs and I have seen them years later salt coated yet no sign of arcing out. 

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MickyG

we changed from non inverter to inverter saved over 4000 pesos a month. this paid for the 1hp carrier split in one year. No repair or other issues.

The two window 1 hp give as much as dry cooling as the 2hp and 1,5hp noninverters they replaced at a fraction of the running of the running costs. these two used to cost us 13,000 a month in the summer. my recent meralco bill came in at 4630. i am enjoying the far cheaper cool breeze as i type.

 

I know savings when I see them. let lone budget and pay for them!!

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