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Jester

water pump and storage tank

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Jester

Down to last project for this trip.  Long story,  barangy and house is fed by artisan well a couple kilometers up the mountain.  2 years ago had low gravity fed pressure but adequate flow to take a shower most of the time..

During the last 2 years the galvanized 3 inch pipe was damaged and replaced with 3 inch plastic pipe.  Now have low pressure and far less supply of water.  Rarely can use the shower and often the water just dribbles out of the faucet.

Local expert wants to add a pump and storage tank.   I have no experience in this area,  it seems a pump at times would be sucking air and no or little  water and might not last long?  I think a well would be best as we are almost next to a river so could be shallow, but small lot and little room to put one in.

I have looked over the area that was repaired but see nothing that would cause a restriction.

So I am in over my head here and do not trust the locals,  so any and all input is greatly appreciated.  Not even sure what questions to ask?

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Jawny

I have a similar situation and plan to use a storage tank to fill as a backup supply.  The Barangay has source, but is unreliable. Mostly due to poor maintenance.  This source we use as a backup to our own well.  We use the Barangay water for gardening, laundry and dish washing.  When it is low or unavailable we use our well water.  Typically the well we have is for our showers and toilets.

My plan is to use an existing tank we have, presently unused.  I would set up a cistern (correct term?) to capture water and then pump that to the tank for use.  This would be done manually so no issues with sucking air.  

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to_dave007

It's not sucking "air" that would bother me, but sucking the dirty water that will surround the pipe in some locations.

I think Jawny's approach is right..  let municipal water fill a intermediate tank and then pump it to your main tank so that you are never sucking air or crap.  Just may need some procedures so that you don't waste water when the main tank is full. (Of course none of this stops someone ELSE from sucking crap into the water supply).

The flow of water SHOULD be much better at night when there are fewer users.. except of course many other users set up the same system you are describing, which lowers water pressure in the night too.

and lastly.. the water comes from artesian well..  not sure where you are located..  but here in Tuburan many of the mountain water supplies are already drying up this time of year. May not be a bad idea to find out how secure the upstream source is.  Artesian well is great..  but can flow ONLY so long as there is water available in the ground.  Makes sense that the underground supply goes down when it does not rain.

JESTER - Have you tried allowing your water to flow for full 24 hours to measure how much flow you have at different times of day or night?  You would need to know that the municipal supply could normally give you several TIMES the amount of water you really need, else you might be better off with the well as you mentioned.

JESTER - Do you even  HAVE a main tank yet?

Edited by to_dave007
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Headshot

Here is the setup I have. Municipal water is piped into my holding tank. There is a float valve where it enters the tank, so the water shuts off when the tank is full. Downstream from the tank, I have filters and a pressure tank (stainless steel tank with rubber bladder inside and a water pump) that is adjustable to give me the water pressure inside the house that I want. I originally set it up with just gravity feed from the holding tank to the house, but I wasn't happy with the water pressure. It works much better with the pressure tank in the setup. Now, I have enough water and plenty of pressure. Holding tanks are fairly common here because of the unreliable water supply. In my area, the MCWD pipes only have water in the for a few hours each night, so you want the holding tank to fill quickly (or you will run short of water). If I had it to do over again, I would not have elevated my holding tank (which was originally intended for gravity flow). Rather, I would have put the holding tank as low as possible (to maximize flow from the MCWD pipe).

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Jester

I have tried to check flow and pressure with a hose strapped to a ladder,  every time I turn around they move the hose, shut off the water or need the ladder or the hose.   I gave up on that,  they must think I am trying to summon evil spirits or some such thing. I was trying to figure how high I could mount the tank and still get some natural flow into tank with  pump for backup.

Any suggestions on the best pump to use for this set up?

Thanks for input greatly appreciated.

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M.C.A.

If you can find a good plumber in your area he could give you options and cost estimates.   We had to call our plumber because our 30 plus-year-old galvanized pipe finally cracked open from rust, we run a pipe from our manual water pump to our electric water pump we've done this for two decades the electric pump I use is made in Italy and sells from 7,000 - 10,000 pesos it's long lasting and can be rebuilt.

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Jester

I am on Biliran and good help does not exist.  They seem to screw everything up around here!  If there is good help I do not seem to be able to find them.

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Daddle

Having a pump 'sucking" on a pipe is never a good idea. Always arrange things to "push" the water.  Gravity feed seems simple but in reality is far more complex than one might first think. Google "hydraulic grade" if you dare. A three inch pipe can carry enough for a small town. A much smaller pipe running all day can easily supply a simple home without large irrigation needs. A mere "soda-straw-like" dribble can be plenty if runs all day into a tank.

You may need two tanks. A small tank to collect water from the spring or source. The pump would draw from this tank to fill a larger tank in the attic, on a tower, or on a hill.

People who really understand such plumbing are very rare in any area.

A private well near the house, if the water is good, is by far the best solution if a municipal supply of and meager flow is not available.

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SkyMan
7 minutes ago, Daddle said:

Having a pump 'sucking" on a pipe is never a good idea. Always arrange things to "push" the water.  Gravity feed seems simple but in reality is far more complex than one might first think. Google "hydraulic grade" if you dare. A three inch pipe can carry enough for a small town. A much smaller pipe running all day can easily supply a simple home without large irrigation needs. A mere "soda-straw-like" dribble can be plenty if runs all day into a tank.

You may need two tanks. A small tank to collect water from the spring or source. The pump would draw from this tank to fill a larger tank in the attic, on a tower, or on a hill.

I may be wrong but I believe the spring feeds the barangay and the house is on barangay water.  I don't think he wants to run his own pipe from the spring nor would the barangay let him.  So, I think the well is the way to go if the supplied water isn't sufficient.

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Daddle
3 minutes ago, SkyMan said:

I may be wrong but I believe the spring feeds the barangay and the house is on barangay water.  I don't think he wants to run his own pipe from the spring nor would the barangay let him.  So, I think the well is the way to go if the supplied water isn't sufficient.

I see what you mean. But the "sucking" on a pipe problem remains a very bad idea. Better to let it dribble into a collection tank that feeds a pump.

If the dribble is a liter per minute that is 1440 liters per day. Which could be plenty. Easy to check with a soda bottle.

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Jester

Correct the spring feeds the barangay and the house is on barangay water.   Near impossible to measure water flow.

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Woolf
Woolf
Jester

Sooooo, I scour the net and look at drilling wells in the PI's and found some interesting info.

I bring it up at dinner time and people that don't know there arse from a hole in the ground all insist a well cannot be put in here, that no one on Biliran has a drilled well, everyone gets their water from the mountain.

How do you guys manage to stay here, drives me nuts!

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SkyMan
13 minutes ago, Jester said:

How do you guys manage to stay here, drives me nuts!

It's a little like being Noah sometimes.

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Woolf
25 minutes ago, Jester said:

I bring it up at dinner time and people that don't know there arse from a hole in the ground all insist a well cannot be put in here, that no one on Biliran has a drilled well, everyone gets their water from the mountain

Well they could be right

They subdivision I live in, has a deep well, the problem is that salt water is seeping in from the sea, so our water has a high level of salt, we are only 600 meters from the sea

infact it is a problem in the greater cebu city  area

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Jester
Just now, Woolf said:

Well they could be right

They subdivision I live in, has a deep well, the problem is that salt water is seeping in from the sea, so our water has a high level of salt, we are only 600 meters from the sea

infact it is a problem in the greater cebu city  area

Past experience gives them about a 1 in 100 chance of being right.  The elevation here is too high to hit seawater unless a 300 foot well were drilled.

 

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Headshot
2 hours ago, Jester said:

Past experience gives them about a 1 in 100 chance of being right.  The elevation here is too high to hit seawater unless a 300 foot well were drilled.

If the water from the barangay is good (as in tastes good), it might be a lot cheaper just to install a big holding tank along with a pressure tank and filters. Even a slow flow from your pipe will fill a holding tank over time. That way, you will know that your water is pure even when the barangay doesn't maintain their pipe properly (a big problem here). A couple of years ago, there was a government study done that said that forty-five percent of the wells in the Philippines are contaminated. That includes water district, municipal and barangay wells as well as private wells. Everyone should filter their water, regardless of the water's source.

You should also check on the legality of drilling a well at your location. A lot of areas of the Philippines no longer allow private wells.

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Jester

Well MR always right has egg on his face again.  I checked Google Earth elevations and there is a 45 ft elevation rise between salt water and where the well would go, and about 1km distance.  (I have no idea why the font changed)

It is the constant push back on any new idea that frustrates me.  I am doing much better this trip almost 5 weeks and I have not screamed at anyone yet.

I will bounce the cistrin idea and if it gets nixed, I will wash my hands of the whole thing.

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Daddle
13 hours ago, Jester said:

Correct the spring feeds the barangay and the house is on barangay water.   Near impossible to measure water flow.

How can it be impossible? Get a barrel, or whatever, put it under the best tap, measure the time to fill, estimate the barrel capacity. Try it in the middle of the night too as I notice that at mid-morning here the flow gets quite low but in the late night the tap blasts. With a proper tank you only need part time flow.

Also ask the neighbors about their flow because it would be embarrassing if only your pipe was clogged.

And how to we avoid going nuts? By enjoying the collision of their carefree ignorance with my tedious reasoning. I built a well here in Quezon using what I learned in California. Endless clean water without ever a grain of sand or hint of mud. But the local geniuses had watched me build it. Because they had once in their lifetime seen a well they were all experts and offered their insights forcefully and often. Seeing my ridiculous well actually work reliably was was not persuasive. As they shook their heads they would tell me I must pound a 1 1/4 inch pipe into the ground. That pipe must have a few holes in the side to let the water in, etc, etc. They were hilariously honest that, yes, sand and mud were normal here. That output would be limited to a few bucket fulls then we would wait a few minutes for the little holes to fill the little pipe. If I wanted more water I must pound in a larger pipe...

The father-in-law got together with a few expert neighbors to sneak in here one day while we were away. I suspect the wife was complicit, but that cannot be determined, heh. They ignorantly pounded in their pipe with little holes. Gotta hand it to the geniuses, they were 100% correct on most points: Mud, sand and very limited water was the immediate result. Taking a bath was miserable. And slow. They even took away my old pump and generously installed one they insisted was able to handle sand better.

Absolutely hilarious. I have now restored proper operation. In absolute secrecy. And got my old pump back. I'm pretty sure one could pump thousands of liters of clean water from it, continuously, if one had the endurance.

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M.C.A.
11 hours ago, Jester said:

Sooooo, I scour the net and look at drilling wells in the PI's and found some interesting info.

I bring it up at dinner time and people that don't know there arse from a hole in the ground all insist a well cannot be put in here, that no one on Biliran has a drilled well, everyone gets their water from the mountain.

How do you guys manage to stay here, drives me nuts!

And that's just one of the many issues that used to drive me nuts also so I stopped talking to others and tried to find answers on my own, so do the hardware stores sell these manual pumps?  Just curious if not then you might have something there but if they do sell them then a well would be the way to go.

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Barryrio

Our set-up here in Valencia is as described by Headshot to cope with the same situation. Water switched off several hours a day and after very heavy rainfall. Can never have too much storage lol!

57364758_10217157674747454_6235110740655603712_o.jpg

58113555_10217157674067437_7894421413585485824_o.jpg

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Barryrio

Forgot to mention the cost: Tank 21,000 Pressure tank 8,000 and water pump 4,500 pesos.

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Jester

I tried, I really did.  Will not go for a well, even though I am the one willing to pay for it.  A cistrin is out of the question for some reason will not work here and someone will put something in it.   

With what little water they have I am washing my hands of it,  they can all go without washing and die of thirst as far as I care,  too damn frustrating.

Thanks for all the input and ideas, greatly appreciated.

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Jester
Just now, Daddle said:

How can it be impossible? Get a barrel, or whatever, put it under the best tap, measure the time to fill, estimate the barrel capacity. Try it in the middle of the night too as I notice that at mid-morning here the flow gets quite low but in the late night the tap blasts. With a proper tank you only need part time flow.

Also ask the neighbors about their flow because it would be embarrassing if only your pipe was clogged.

And how to we avoid going nuts? By enjoying the collision of their carefree ignorance with my tedious reasoning. I built a well here in Quezon using what I learned in California. Endless clean water without ever a grain of sand or hint of mud. But the local geniuses had watched me build it. Because they had once in their lifetime seen a well they were all experts and offered their insights forcefully and often. Seeing my ridiculous well actually work reliably was was not persuasive. As they shook their heads they would tell me I must pound a 1 1/4 inch pipe into the ground. That pipe must have a few holes in the side to let the water in, etc, etc. They were hilariously honest that, yes, sand and mud were normal here. That output would be limited to a few bucket fulls then we would wait a few minutes for the little holes to fill the little pipe. If I wanted more water I must pound in a larger pipe...

The father-in-law got together with a few expert neighbors to sneak in here one day while we were away. I suspect the wife was complicit, but that cannot be determined, heh. They ignorantly pounded in their pipe with little holes. Gotta hand it to the geniuses, they were 100% correct on most points: Mud, sand and very limited water was the immediate result. Taking a bath was miserable. And slow. They even took away my old pump and generously installed one they insisted was able to handle sand better.

Absolutely hilarious. I have now restored proper operation. In absolute secrecy. And got my old pump back. I'm pretty sure one could pump thousands of liters of clean water from it, continuously, if one had the endurance.

I see you understand what I am up against!  Grateful I do not live here.

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