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Bob in Iligan

Barangay rates for materials and bay leases

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Bob in Iligan

I have done some very fruitful research on an enterprise that now is down to site location and it is going to require paying the Barangay for materials acquisition (rock and sand) out of the bay and also leasing space for fish farming nets.  There is only one guy near where I am going to locate and I know what he's paying for both.   But this is going on all over Philippines, some of the largest being the Chinese who do the pearl farming off Palawan.   (Leasing a bay for one thing or another, clams or fish nets, floating strip clubs, lol.)  

I build for a living, have already built a house in the Philippines using their approach on the sea shore, with a sea wall and break water.  I have also commercial fished.   In the Bering Sea.  At the mouth of the Yukon, drift gillnetting.   This way, way easier and less life threatening.   I am going to be doing salinity tests at two sites next winter, we are back in the states right now but I would be interested to hear what anyone else is paying.  It's a pretty simple deal, we have a couple of target bays that have fresh water inflow and remarkably nobody living there.  We actually used google earth to find these spots and it was incredibly powerful information at zero cost.   

The location decision had two criteria, one was fresh water input and the other was distance to fish broker ports.  To live in these times with this kind of technology defies belief, we absolutely nailed it and now it is a matter of some light tedium doing 3D mapping of the fresh water clouds, they dictate the net locations.  Brackish water is way cool, no problem but the higher the fresh water content the better.   Our long term involves salt water anyway but our first foot hold is going to be brackish. 

 

 

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Dafey

@JamesMusslewhite is probably the guy you want to talk to. I don't think he does what you are but similar...I'm sure he'll check in soon, been a while since we've seen him here.

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BossHog
10 hours ago, Bob in Iligan said:

it is going to require paying the Barangay for materials acquisition (rock and sand) out of the bay

You'll be wanting to look at some DENR clearances before you embark on this project.

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JamesMusslewhite
4 hours ago, Dafey said:

@JamesMusslewhite is probably the guy you want to talk to. I don't think he does what you are but similar...I'm sure he'll check in soon, been a while since we've seen him here.

Been busier than a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest. I have been knee-deep in research and video editing trying to finish the 2nd Youtube lobster aquaculture training video. After that I have to jump on the 3rd one so I can complete that series, that series will be four and a half hours long. I also traveled up to Cebu for ten days and Kong for a couple of days mostly to visit an old friends to sketch floor plans for a house he is building and do the annoying Visa renewal. Been back a couple of days and decided to check all my messages. Amazing how backed-up my emails can get over a couple of weeks of neglect.

 

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JamesMusslewhite
11 hours ago, Bob in Iligan said:

I have done some very fruitful research on an enterprise that now is down to site location and it is going to require paying the Barangay for materials acquisition (rock and sand) out of the bay and also leasing space for fish farming nets.  There is only one guy near where I am going to locate and I know what he's paying for both.   But this is going on all over Philippines, some of the largest being the Chinese who do the pearl farming off Palawan.   (Leasing a bay for one thing or another, clams or fish nets, floating strip clubs, lol.)  

I build for a living, have already built a house in the Philippines using their approach on the sea shore, with a sea wall and break water.  I have also commercial fished.   In the Bering Sea.  At the mouth of the Yukon, drift gillnetting.   This way, way easier and less life threatening.   I am going to be doing salinity tests at two sites next winter, we are back in the states right now but I would be interested to hear what anyone else is paying.  It's a pretty simple deal, we have a couple of target bays that have fresh water inflow and remarkably nobody living there.  We actually used google earth to find these spots and it was incredibly powerful information at zero cost.   

The location decision had two criteria, one was fresh water input and the other was distance to fish broker ports.  To live in these times with this kind of technology defies belief, we absolutely nailed it and now it is a matter of some light tedium doing 3D mapping of the fresh water clouds, they dictate the net locations.  Brackish water is way cool, no problem but the higher the fresh water content the better.   Our long term involves salt water anyway but our first foot hold is going to be brackish. 

 

 

   Boss Hog gave some sound advice. I would also suggest you contact the regional department of fisheries as to possible requirements. Aquaculture can be tricky with overlapping government agencies each having over-site and requirements, resulting in multiple permits.. I do not have enough information as to what type of aquaculture operation you will be engaged in. But over the last couple of year they are tightening up with an eye to protect natural resources, nursery grounds etc. so it is best to be aware and well above the bell curve, as you will surely be on every radar.      

   If you will be regularly engaged in heavy-scale fishing of local waters there will probably be the need to meet with the local fishing authority (Mafia) so they do not get their feelings hurt as they can be both ruthless and relentless. There I believe is still a tread on the forum where they drove an expat out and he fled the area before being introduced to the bottom of the seafloor. That thread does make for an interesting read.

   Good luck with whatever your venture, and I am sorry if my information was not sufficient but I have little to no information.

       

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Bob in Iligan

Yeah, the permitting is advice for noobs I know, but the rates on materials acquisition and leasing bay space is my question.   The answer is nobody here knows.  No problem, I have a person who went before me:  he is a Brit.  But having more price quotes is always powerful information.  The Barangay Captain is the dude.   You go straight to him.  But I want the Filipino price, not the Americano price.  

In an incredible act of serendipity, we go to this target area.  We look things over and it's looking really good.  The first place we stay, we go to the local school.  Because giving a donation to the school always works.  These kids have to stop going because their parents cannot afford the paper and pencils, the paltry supplies their kids need.  A little goes a long way.

So you know we are walking around the school yard and the principal comes out to see what we're up to.  Hi, what is your name, oh gosh what a coincidence it is the same name as my grandfather (says my wife).  Oh that's interesting, it's my grandfather's name too, says the principal.  And he's from Cebu.  To which my wife replies, oh really?   Because my grandfather is from Cebu too!   And so they are family.  The principal of the local school is some kind of cousin, I don't know lineage rules but it was an amazing coincidence.

This would be taken as a sign, to have family already planted there to be a kind of goodwill anchor, someone who will vouch for us and also warn us off bad people.  There is more than pure commercial number crunching going on.  Like not having any Muslim separatists.  No NPA.  No ghastly pollution.  And out of an amazing coincidence a place we zeroed in on for this little enterprise had family already there.  

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Bob in Iligan

I tried to look up lobster farming videos, not sure what is yours on youtube James.   Please tell me what your series is.  A link.  

Obviously Tilapia is the quickest turn-around, shortest payback, and brackish water is okay but not too much salinity.  I have great fresh-water sources spilling unpolluted into bays nobody lives in.  Pristine.  Less than an hour from a major fish port.  We've talked to brokers there, they want live fish, on a steady schedule.  We can do that.

No, the commercial fishing isn't what I want:  dead fish in holds with gill net marks and predator bites, diesel mixed in, etc.  We are going to farm fish.  We're talking about live delivery of uniform size fish on a regular schedule.  Salmon I already know, but it's three years.  Compared to three months for Tilapia if you start from fingerlings.  Which is fine by me.  

I can fabricate.  I do construction.  A land-based option with Tilapia is possible perhaps.  Pens are cheaper and you can yank them up if a typhoon comes so not a lot of capital at risk.  

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Bob in Iligan
On 3/15/2019 at 2:13 AM, BossHog said:

You'll be wanting to look at some DENR clearances before you embark on this project.

I can't tell if a person is joking or not, this is kind of like needing a license to drive.  But speaking from experience the government people are the least informed of anyone you want to speak with.  That includes permit acquisition.  

It's the industry people doing it, they have already gone through the agony of government bureaucrats contradicting each other on how to do things, they don't even know their own rules.  They won't be there at their offices when they say.  Mostly, they want you to buy them lunch.   When it comes to the permitting, you walk in already knowing exactly what they are going to do for you, knowing their job better than they know it themselves.  These IQ < 100 petty dictators.  

The University people supposedly studying acquaculture - they're way behind commercial technology and knowledge.  It's embarassing.  I did fishing on commercial scale, it is not my first rodeo.  I had to have licenses, permits, there were rules on net sizes and hours I could fish, how big the boat could be, so what.  My question is about materials acquisition and bay rentals.  These are Barangay matters, I already know. 

So it is still with warm wishes that I respond but that my question requires an answer in pesos per cubic meter.  Not that rain requires an umbrella or that fishing requires a boat.  I have boats, three of them in two different countries, I've fished with all of them and made decent money in an exciting area, they show it on television like Deadliest Catch.  

In humor I am thinking of the boat captains in Deadliest Catch, they're way bigger scale but for fun:  it's a $2.5 million dollar vessel, the permit is over a quarter million dollars, he has lives on the line, it's just savage weather that kills people every year...   He calls out on the open channel "does anybody know what diesel is per gallon in Dutch Harbor"?   And the calls start coming back:  you know you need a permit to fish, right?   You can't just start fishing.  And you need a captain's license too.  Do you have a radio operator's license?  Is your boat registered?  
None of it having to do with the fuel you would like to purchase, and it is a lot of fuel so the price per gallon, that is real important to the bottom line.  You have a figure already.  One supplier of Barangay rock and sand, the same supplier of bay area for fish farming.  In pesos per cubic meter, pesos per square net pen dimensions.  They put a provision in for not impeding navigation in the permit I saw with my own eyes.  Is this a good price?   They were the first ones to do it in the area.  So I don't know.  I would also like not to share my current information.   It was obtained at significant cost, I had to site visit to acquire it. 

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Headshot

Bob, are there any fish farming forums around? My first thought was that nobody on this forum (with the possible exception of James Musslewhite) has any idea on the information you are asking for. PM James, and ask him specific questions. Although he is into lobster faring and not fish farming, I'm sure he has to jump through the same governmental hoops you will have to.

It surprised me when you were talking about barangay clearances and permits. It was my understanding that barangay governments only have jurisdiction over dry land above the high water mark, and that the DENR has jurisdiction over anything from the high water mark to the open ocean. Of course, that is just my understanding, and I could be wrong. I hope you know who has jurisdiction over what before you proceed. Bringing a head full of knowledge from your home country is a good thing, but it won't substitute for knowing and understanding the laws (and unwritten laws) of this country.

Going back to the "Dangerous Catch" reference, don't you think that the other captains were just incredulous that somebody would be asking that question? After all, regardless of the price of diesel, the only options you have are to either fill up and go fishing or tie up in the harbor and sit out the season. That might explain why they gave him such a ration of shit.

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JamesMusslewhite
On 3/19/2019 at 8:55 AM, Bob in Iligan said:

Yeah, the permitting is advice for noobs I know, but the rates on materials acquisition and leasing bay space is my question.   The answer is nobody here knows.  No problem, I have a person who went before me:  he is a Brit.  But having more price quotes is always powerful information.  The Barangay Captain is the dude.   You go straight to him.  But I want the Filipino price, not the Americano price.  

In an incredible act of serendipity, we go to this target area.  We look things over and it's looking really good.  The first place we stay, we go to the local school.  Because giving a donation to the school always works.  These kids have to stop going because their parents cannot afford the paper and pencils, the paltry supplies their kids need.  A little goes a long way.

So you know we are walking around the school yard and the principal comes out to see what we're up to.  Hi, what is your name, oh gosh what a coincidence it is the same name as my grandfather (says my wife).  Oh that's interesting, it's my grandfather's name too, says the principal.  And he's from Cebu.  To which my wife replies, oh really?   Because my grandfather is from Cebu too!   And so they are family.  The principal of the local school is some kind of cousin, I don't know lineage rules but it was an amazing coincidence.

This would be taken as a sign, to have family already planted there to be a kind of goodwill anchor, someone who will vouch for us and also warn us off bad people.  There is more than pure commercial number crunching going on.  Like not having any Muslim separatists.  No NPA.  No ghastly pollution.  And out of an amazing coincidence a place we zeroed in on for this little enterprise had family already there.  

   Family ties is a strength when networking. I have seen it in action more than I can count over the last eleven years. My wife in the upper tier of a powerful lineage on Bohol, and seen that effect even in Surigao. School and church are the center of most communities, and donation of sacks of rice to churches earns good will and is an excellent PR vehicle,

   I live on a very small private island (not mine (I am a poor broke-dick) and my wife and I are both the sole inhabitants and isolated. We are rural and are in the shadow of NPA controlled hill country, but we have fear as the local NPA helps protects us here. We have never paid revolution-tax either here or on our farm on Dinagat Island. The NPA, a few years back, targeted an expat for an execution. They had a small team setuo a roadblock an was going to shoot him, but realized his maid, wife and young daughter where in the back seat; so they shot out the tires instead. It was their intent to kill the fool. With a second NPA team simultaneously raiding his home with the intent to seize an AR-15 he had been waving around at locals and firing in the air. The expat quickly left Surigao and last I heard was somewhere in Cebu. He did sell his house but at a greatly reduced price. Several years back another expat loved firing his shotgun to intimidate locals, he was instructed to leave and never return. There was another expat not far him who was involved in some some nefarious behavior who also quickly left, after being advised he had extended beyond his welcome. This dude on Siargao Island tells a grand tale (void of certain facts) tries to play the poor poor innocent victim.   https://www.reddit.com/r/Philippines/comments/3hptis/siargao_island_violence_police_extortion_npa/ 

   Each think they were great guys as they were acting the fool. And each endured the woes caused by their own creation. The NPA does police many rural community and remove corrupt politicians, police, businessmen and pricks; and will target expats if forced to when they try to lord over locals. And NPA are deep-rooted in most rural communities. So doing things which as seen as benefiting the poorer locals is a wise. One can treat locals with respect and being flexible and handier than a shirt pocket to the community will benefit. Things like allowing access to neighbors so they can access their property, and being calm and peaceful when dealing with locals and working to be a benefit to the community, is not just Christian but it earns you respect and security   

   But you can bend without breaking. become known to local authorities, work through the barangay and get the three best and most respected lawyers in your area on retainer.

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JamesMusslewhite
On 3/19/2019 at 9:12 AM, Bob in Iligan said:

I tried to look up lobster farming videos, not sure what is yours on youtube James.   Please tell me what your series is.  A link.  

Obviously Tilapia is the quickest turn-around, shortest payback, and brackish water is okay but not too much salinity.  I have great fresh-water sources spilling unpolluted into bays nobody lives in.  Pristine.  Less than an hour from a major fish port.  We've talked to brokers there, they want live fish, on a steady schedule.  We can do that.

No, the commercial fishing isn't what I want:  dead fish in holds with gill net marks and predator bites, diesel mixed in, etc.  We are going to farm fish.  We're talking about live delivery of uniform size fish on a regular schedule.  Salmon I already know, but it's three years.  Compared to three months for Tilapia if you start from fingerlings.  Which is fine by me.  

I can fabricate.  I do construction.  A land-based option with Tilapia is possible perhaps.  Pens are cheaper and you can yank them up if a typhoon comes so not a lot of capital at risk.  

   I have built several small lobster huts in and around Dinagat Island over the last decade, but merely to supply my own supply (I love a few tails every so often) and sell enough to cover coats and maintenance expenses. I am a retired commercial horticulturalist with a background in botany and biology. For 30 years I owned landscape companies, containerized greeneries, garden centers. over those years constructed commercial freshwater fish ponds, saltwater cages and floating net platforms. I found myself occasionally consulting for both Texas and Louisiana Parks & Wildlife departments for the Gulf of Mexico Game Fish Revitalization Programs. Mainly on coastal shallow water 'nurseries' and 'stock grow-out' operations and designs. Nothing really major but still nice to have been invited to contribute. Did some private consultations, last was for the Speaker of Parliament for the country of Maldives (designing a floating lobster/grouper grow-out platform facility and also to determine viability of a commercial floriculture facility). Since then I have been asked a few times to do consulting work in and around Asia, Africa and Middle East, but I am presently dedicated to completing this little lobster micro-hatchery I designed.  This is a link to my Youtube Channel https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7Rkikd3hnZ0MgGyXiJh5KA

   I will be later converting small rice patties to fish 'grow-out' pond with the intention to raise silver and red tilapia and bass. I will primarily be raising stock in small floating cages in the converted rice patties, with above-ground cement constructed  breeder and brooding tanks to raise fingerlings. Tilapia reach market weight in 8-10 months. Females can become breeders in 6 months. 800 breeder pairs can produce 2.4 million fingerlings yearly. Males grow 30% larger then females. Cement brooding tanks allow the application of 17a-methyltestosterone (MT) fertilizer to sex reversal female-to male brood. Normally females outnumber males within a single brood. What is often misunderstood by raisers of large pond-raised tilapia is the ability of females capability of females to breed in six months to the relationship to needing 8-10 month housing required to gain market weight. What happens is the pond becomes over-populated with fingerlings. This over-population depletes oxygen added by raised levels of ammonia, and the fingerlings being both a larger population and faster quickly cause an issue of competition for feed. This means larger individuals begin to grow slower taking longer to reach market weight. This slows production while increases both feed costs and costs of labor. This is why it is best to size individuals and cage raise stock. a. tilapia will anything that they can fit in their mouth, so sizing insures each body within the enclosure is larger then their cannibalistic mouths. b.) sized individuals allow the grower to maximize growth of stock and minimize feed waste. Cages allow easy stock counts and ease of relocating stock. If cage raised on ponds then floating frames can be used between cages to raise vegetable allowing an additional revenue. Floating cages can also be easily designed to have an additional grow-out space separate to the enclosure space for tilapia. This lower grow-out area can be used to raise prawns under the tilapia (multi-cropping) allowing to raise an additional revenue stream within the cage. Also tilapia and prawns can be raised and harvested at the same time. Many freshwater and saltwater aquatic species are capable of being multi-cropped allowing increased profit potential.

 

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