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DeedleNuts
17 hours ago, KID said:

I Drove a ford fusion hybrid while my 2 seater was in the shop after an idiot hit it while it was parked. I was impressed, had plenty of power and I used like a gallon of fuel in 3 days----nice car

^^^^^ THIS.

Until electrics can approximate the range and refill capabilities of conventional vehicles the PHEV really looks like a great way to go. As a bonus I got a big slice of my obscene tax bill back as a tax credit. I sort of wish I needed a commuter car so I could get an electric for that but since I work from home that's gonna be tough to justify. 

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It's finally here! The $35k Tesla has arrived.  Order on your phone in 1-5 minutes, arrives at your home in 2-4 weeks. 7 day/1000 mile no-hassle return if not happy. 500K-1Mil mile driv

Can anyone guess who has invested in Tesla stock ?

Boy you certainly wouldn't want to take a long trip if you have to stop every 170 miles to recharge.

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PhilsFan
17 hours ago, DeedleNuts said:

I I'm not a mathematics PhD but I'm fairly certain 15 minus 11 isn't 1. In fact since 12 is about my driving limit, what that does is turn it from a one day drive into a two day drive. 

 

My new car is a plug in hybrid for precisely use cases like this. 

 

 

6

If you leave your house charged, Your 800-mile drive will require 3 stops to reach your destination...as 200+ miles is easily achievable.  At the new 40% charge rate I detailed yesterday, you're going to be looking at about 1 hour to 1 hr 15 min in total charging time for that trip vs 30 minutes minimum in a gas car, unless you plan on pissing in a bottle along the way.  Your "Fuel" cost will be much less than 1/2 what you pay for gasoline. How many of us have driven around and around looking to save a few pennies on Gas? How many minutes did you waste in your quest for the best price? 

I hope you realize that on the freeway for this drive...in a Tesla, you won't be driving..the CAR will. You just monitor the car, mostly. It is MUCh less taxing than driving a regular car.  I guarantee you that you will not feel "burnt out" after the 12 hour trip in a Tesla vs your 11-hour driving marathon. 

I do applaud you for driving a hybrid...they work great in a lot of cases if you have 20 or more miles on a charged battery. In the end, though, they are twice as complicated as they need to be. 

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DeedleNuts
6 hours ago, PhilsFan said:

If you leave your house charged, Your 800-mile drive will require 3 stops to reach your destination...as 200+ miles is easily achievable.  At the new 40% charge rate I detailed yesterday, you're going to be looking at about 1 hour to 1 hr 15 min in total charging time for that trip

First, if you follow the conversation back we're talking about 170 mile legs on a journey, which seems generous given what I know about electric cars and their specifications for a base model 3. Second, the quick charge last I looked wasn't a full charge, it was a very fast charge to partial charge, so the subsequent legs can't even be 170 miles. Third, driving over the speed specified in the test that yielded the 170 mile specification will result in a sometimes severe degradation, and CA drivers on I-5 don't typically let much grass grow under their feet. Fourth, splitting the drive into 4 (or 5 now) 170 mile sections assumes a charging station is available precisely where it's needed. This isn't even true of gasoline filling stations in central and northern CA, one has to stop when one can in some sections. Fifth, Tesla's own web app says 15:21 for the longest ranged model 3, the 310 mile version. Finally, god help you if the weather is cold as you go north. 

310 is almost double 170, by the way. 

 

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DeedleNuts

Here is an example of how driving with faster traffic can kill range in a Tesla:

image.png.f03f641b4c56e614b8f18923a12f8747.png

 

Of course driving more slowly takes longer, so it's a bit of a catch 22 on longer road trips. 

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DeedleNuts

Here is a very reasonable approximation of my drive, as planned by Tesla:

image.thumb.png.c80855e3951017acacdef6d1c07669a9.png

I drove this route routinely in 11-12 hours with a woman and child aboard; solo I can shave about 30 minutes off that. Note that the vast majority of the drive is I-5 in CA and a lot of that is posted 75, with traffic exceeding that by some margin on a typical day. Just the sort of drive that makes a Tesla cry for mommy(*). 

Even in a car that can cover almost 600 miles between fills, one major factor was planning it so that I only had to stop once rather than twice. This involves getting up and eating bfast at home and making sure we have all peed and are packing water and some snacks.

Stopping costs a lot of time. 

 

* Assuming mommy is a charging station. 

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throttleplate
13 hours ago, PhilsFan said:

If you leave your house charged, Your 800-mile drive will require 3 stops to reach your destination...as 200+ miles is easily achievable.  At the new 40% charge rate I detailed yesterday, you're going to be looking at about 1 hour to 1 hr 15 min in total charging time for that trip vs 30 minutes minimum in a gas car, unless you plan on pissing in a bottle along the way.  Your "Fuel" cost will be much less than 1/2 what you pay for gasoline. How many of us have driven around and around looking to save a few pennies on Gas? How many minutes did you waste in your quest for the best price? 

I hope you realize that on the freeway for this drive...in a Tesla, you won't be driving..the CAR will. You just monitor the car, mostly. It is MUCh less taxing than driving a regular car.  I guarantee you that you will not feel "burnt out" after the 12 hour trip in a Tesla vs your 11-hour driving marathon. 

I do applaud you for driving a hybrid...they work great in a lot of cases if you have 20 or more miles on a charged battery. In the end, though, they are twice as complicated as they need to be. 

{I hope you realize that on the freeway for this drive...in a Tesla, you won't be driving..the CAR will. You just monitor the car, mostly. It is MUCh less taxing than driving a regular car.  I guarantee you that you will not feel "burnt out" after the 12 hour trip in a Tesla vs your 11-hour driving marathon. }

if i have to just monitor the car i would for sure fall asleep. Whats to monitor, the electric meter?  its not the lunar module. To me driving is fun, passing trucks, drafting trucks, not letting someone get by me before i get caught behind a slower vehicle and have to tap the brake and lose cruise controll.

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Semper paratus
On 3/3/2019 at 9:33 AM, Semper paratus said:

I guess someone is perhaps waiting for info from AOC before they answer any of my more than valid questions below.

Replacement battery costs and frequency ?  Electricity is not free folks especially in the Philippines. And they cannot even meet the demand now, How about when millions of cars need charging ? What fuel will be burned to produce the electricity ? How much pollution will that add ? What will happen to all the defunct batteries ? Can they be recycled ?  And at what costs ? What will happen to the cost of the raw materials to produce these billions of batteries and how large is the supply of same. The basic Tesla still costs double the price of a small gasoline car. Our Mirage GLS with auto trans, and a/c running constantly gets over 40 mpg. Stop and go city still 30 mpg plus.  Just how many miles would one have to drive to even break even on the price differential alone not counting battery replacement and all the other variables. I am a long long way from being sold on this deal. Every action has a reaction, fuels will still need to be burned or collected to produce the electricity and on and on. No fuel is truly renewable. That's is a whole new  subject.  And don't even try to say solar if free. Solar absorbs heat energy to the earth that is normally dispersed back into space. Thermal is cooling the center of the earth, at some point that will have a definite reaction. Exploring further into space may be the answer. Nothing is free. 

I'm still waiting for answers to the above. Could it be that no one knows, or won't let the truth be known ? If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor. But the savior with the green deal probably has all the answers, but they are secret. The answers are on a " list". 

Edited by Semper paratus
The auto spell thingy doesn't know how to spell green.
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lamoe
1 hour ago, throttleplate said:

{I hope you realize that on the freeway for this drive...in a Tesla, you won't be driving..the CAR will. You just monitor the car, mostly. It is MUCh less taxing than driving a regular car.  I guarantee you that you will not feel "burnt out" after the 12 hour trip in a Tesla vs your 11-hour driving marathon. }

if i have to just monitor the car i would for sure fall asleep. Whats to monitor, the electric meter?  its not the lunar module. To me driving is fun, passing trucks, drafting trucks, not letting someone get by me before i get caught behind a slower vehicle and have to tap the brake and lose cruise controll.

Just read a study that the longer you let the car drive the more complacent the driver becomes to recognizing potential dangers the car misses 23% highest so far  -  if there are passengers?

Simulator tests only so subconsciously 'driver' may know will never be in danger.

New legal defense for a crash - 'cars' fault' :shocked:

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6 hours ago, throttleplate said:

{I hope you realize that on the freeway for this drive...in a Tesla, you won't be driving..the CAR will.

More time to drink beer and read LINC, maybe roll a couple :)

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PhilsFan
17 hours ago, DeedleNuts said:

Here is a very reasonable approximation of my drive, as planned by Tesla:

 I drove this route routinely in 11-12 hours with a woman and child aboard; solo I can shave about 30 minutes off that. Note that the vast majority of the drive is I-5 in CA and a lot of that is posted 75, with traffic exceeding that by some margin on a typical day. Just the sort of drive that makes a Tesla cry for mommy(*). 

Even in a car that can cover almost 600 miles between fills, one major factor was planning it so that I only had to stop once rather than twice. This involves getting up and eating bfast at home and making sure we have all peed and are packing water and some snacks.

Stopping costs a lot of time. 

 

* Assuming mommy is a charging station. 

1

Boy, your just not going to let this go, are you?  You're being disingenuous, and frankly, you don't know shit about long-distance travel with the cars.

First of all, you can skip your first stop in anything other than the short-range S. Actually you could skip it, with the short range car, just slow down a little for the 200-mile leg, but with the kids/wife, Ok I will grant you that you might want to stop.  What your calculations don't show because it's not on the website yet, is the 40% reduction in those charge times that will be available to all in a few months or less.  I added up your charge times and with a 40% reduction your charge times (as listed) you get charge times of 2 hrs and 15 minutes. spend another 2k or 5k for a longer range car and you can skip your first stop, making your trip charge time 2 hours. Spend a little more for the M3 Long Range and you can skip at least another stop and your charge times drop even more due to a larger battery taking a higher rate of charge for longer time-period.

If you buy the absolutely cheapest Tesla available now, yes AT THIS MOMENT IN TIME, it's going to take you a little longer. I will inform you that Tesla's battery tech improves approx 8%/yr. The Model 3 MR is 5K more and you get a bunch of options with that too..it's range is 264 miles, for another 3K (8K total) you can have 325+ miles plus a bunch more options. 

You seem to think that because you make a road trip a couple of times a year that the car is worthless. Fact is, 90% of the time most people don't drive more than 50 miles/day. So gosh, if you JUST MUST GET TO YOUR DESTINATION 1 HOUR QUICKER...best not to buy the car...FFS.  Fact is, your stressing the feck out of your family by doing trips like this..oh how fun...I have to hold my Piss for another 400 miles, yea.

Let's not count the fact this car will run for 500k-1 million miles, no maintenance to speak of other than tires, wiper blades, etc. Let's not talk about that you leave home every day full and ready to go, pre-cooled/heated. Let's not talk about the fact that if you have some form of off-peak charging you looking at saving several hundred dollars/mo on fuel or more if you drive a lot. But hey, I would rather drive something that rattles/shakes and is harmful to the earth because I can save 1 hour of my time a few times a year.  I will remind you that this car, after 1 year on market has a "Buy Again" rating of 95%... tied for 1st with the Porsche 911.  Model 3 is the SAFEST car you can buy and by a wide margin.  I could go on, but you have wasted enough time debating an argument that the cars...American made cars...are no good. We haven't even discussed how much fun to drive (handles like a Porsche) super quick, etc.  Is your Hybrid fast? Is your Hybrid agile on canyon roads? How much did you pay MSRP for a Hybrid?

Have a good day, I am done explaining the merits and trip capabilities of this car to YOU and Moe.  

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DeedleNuts
5 hours ago, PhilsFan said:

You seem to think that because you make a road trip a couple of times a year that the car is worthless.

No, I think it's a great commuter, but it's a sh*t replacement for a conventional car for general purpose use. If a person didn't have use for a pickup truck, or actually had a daily commute and needed two cars, it would make a great 2nd car maybe. 

By 'it' I mean an electric car, not necessarily a Tesla. I'd prefer something like the Ioniq or some other car made by a company that's not still learning how to make cars, personally. 

 

Here's the same trip in the long range 3:

image.thumb.png.580c4321c2b5c22649e6e7b6e8168245.png

 

This trip is about as good as it gets, realistically, for a Tesla. Mostly right up a west coast interstate, no rural sightseeing side trips, and so on. Wander away from the chargers, make a few side trips to PoI, and it gets even more interesting. Electrics are likely the future, but they're not ready to take over the world yet. 

For this use case, one COULD have an electric and rent a real car for long trips. This is an option. Not an option that appeals to me but an option nonetheless. However, the fact that the electric is incapable of doing what a conventional car or PHEV can do simply means it's not a suitable replacement, YET. 

 

5 hours ago, PhilsFan said:

What your calculations don't show because it's not on the website yet, is the 40% reduction in those charge times that will be available to all in a few months

Is that in actual time, or Tesla time. As I said, it's not good enough yet. Maybe soon, almost surely eventually, but not today. 

 

 

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DeedleNuts
On 3/1/2019 at 8:52 AM, PhilsFan said:

Most stops are about 20 minutes..you charge just enough to get to the next one if on a road trip...so drive 2.-3 hrs. stop and charge

This is a great illustration of the insanity. What you're proposing is that a 20 minute charge can carry a Tesla for 200 miles, and that people want to stop at a Tesla charging station every few hours. This is the way people who don't know how to do a road trip imagine a road trip would be. 

You talk about 'stressing the family', which makes me chuckle. The kid plays w/ his toys and the woman hates even stopping for gas. 

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to_dave007

You guys ever heard the phrase..  'Different strokes..  for different folks".

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