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solar panels in cebu why dont they work economically?


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#1 musicman666

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:33 PM

i know we have discussed before but that was a while ago

 

i seem to recall in the past that solar panels are just too expensive to make the numbers add up here.

 

then i read this article today http://www.bbc.co.uk...onment-24659790 which is talking about the uk having all these applications for solar farms and how the costs have plummeted for panels recently.

 

now the uk isnt exactly the sunniest spot on the planet ...  now where do they have high power rates and masses of sun with a high demand for electricity????  

 

oh i know ..cebu!  wtf doesnt solar panels appear here...  is veco lobbying the goverment to slap huge taxes on this technology to dampen any movement in this area?? 

 

surely the goverment should be giving it tax free status at the very least...

 

i just cant see any reason not to have solar farms popping up all over the philippines... especially if they ouput could be tariffed at veco rates.

 

i know i must be wrong but why?  thanks!





#2 senseless

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 12:43 PM

Wind power is the most cost effective depending on the price of the mill, it can pay for itself in as little as 3-4 years at around 1$ per watt for the cost of the unit.

 

Solar power is not really that effective. The cheapest panels I've been able to find are around 1$ a watt (about the same as wind) but you only get 6-7 usable hours per day out of them here. The cost of the inverters easily double the price of the system so you'll end up paying 2$ per watt. With 6 hours a day of usable sun 365 days a year this close to the equator with 12% efficiency you'll be looking at around 96W per sqm of solar surface area. Assuming each panel is 1SQM you'd be looking at about 576 watts per day per panel or 210KWH per year per panel which is roughly 29$ per year. Most panels are a bit larger than 1SQM and some have efficiency ratings higher than 12%. But you're still looking at a payoff time of a minimum of 5 years.

 

The government has laws that will force the local electric companies to buy back your power, but only to the amount you use. They will NOT give you a check for providing excess power. If you want to provide power and get paid to do it that falls under the 60/40 provision of the constitution, and if you're going to do it to make money, your best bet is with wind power (assuming you have enough stable wind at a high enough speed to make it worthwhile).

 

There are some systems at less than 2$ a watt including inverters but you'll need to import them. http://www.wholesalesolar.com/

 

As an example: http://www.wholesale...tie-system.html

 

That system is 60 solar panels which would cover your entire roof and then some at a cost of 27,900$ including inverters. "up to 2,120.40 kWh" per month with 5 hours of sun per day.

 

2120 (kwh) * 12 (months per year) * 6 (pesos per KWH) / 43 (conversion to USD) = 3549USD per year

27900 (cost of system) / 3549 (money made per year) = 7.8 years to pay for itself.

 

If you're doing it to offset a percentage of your electrical usage you can change that calculation to 8 pesos per kwh (because you won't have to pay for transmission charges, etc) which results in a 25% decrease in time to pay off. 7.8 years to 5.8 years.

 

The most cost effective solar is solar thermal which requires a relatively large amount of space and an expensive setup but can be done at or less than 1$ per watt at the highest solar efficiency levels. It can also continue to generate electricity after the sun goes down with stored thermal energy in the form of (typically) molten salt.

 

..

 

With the cheap cost of labor here it would be really nice to see a firm start developing windmills locally from locally made generators that are able to be grid tied directly (large wind mills don't need inverters)... Then just start lining the ridge lines with them.


Edited by senseless, 29 October 2013 - 1:19 PM .


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#3 David_LivinginTalisay

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 2:57 PM

The answer for the Philippines is for the Electricity Supply to available from more innovative power producers.

 

Could all us Foreigners, with Filipina asawa's form an Energy Coporation in their names (with us only holding 40% in our names).  

We would probably need some Eco Friendly Politicions to lobby for approval however?

 

The answer for the Philippines, (with a fair degree of sunshine hours per day all the year around) for large Power Requirements, distributed as where needed on a Local basis, is Solar Power, but not necessarily through using Photovoltaics to harness that energy,

 

An alternative is potentially to use the suns THERMAL HEAT Power CSP (Concentrated Thermal Power).
One such CSP solution is through the use of a Sterling engine, driving a Linear Generator, as in the Infinea PowerDish.

 

I have posted to this Forum about INFINEA and their POWERDISH

 

Seems Infinia are struggling through the falling price of PV Power Systems in the USA and elsewhere:-

 

Third attempt for Dish-Stirling, Infinia's Tooele plant goes ahead - See more at: http://www.csp-world...h.EMCIkocE.dpuf

 

http://www.forbes.co...power-heat-ray/

 

 

http://solar.calfind...-auto-industry/
 

One struggling solar startup thinks it has discovered a cost-effective way to bring grid-independent solar thermal power to millions, all while boosting a desperate auto industry.

 

Infinia, a rather unique startup, has found a way to mix 21st Century ideals with 19th Century technology. Their innovation begins with a Stirling engine, one that runs on hot and cold air. So long as one end of the engine remains hotter than the other, the Stirling, which alternately compresses and expands a quantity of air or gas, will keep on pumping. It is so adaptable to today’s needs because the heat source does not matter.

 

That’s where Infinia’s design comes in. They’ve mounted the Stirling at the center of a large concentrating solar collector – a large satellite dish in appearance. This solar-powered Stirling uses solar heat to keep the engine pumping out electricity during the day. It folds up like a flower at night to conserve heat and is backed up by a small bio-fuel generator.

 

big-solar-mirror.jpg
Photo Credit: infiniacorp.com

 

While Infinia has launched several failed Stirling-based technologies since 1985 when the company was formed, their latest innovation is their most positive. So far CEO J.D. Sitton has already garnered $70 million in funding and their first client: the U.S. Army.

 

Infinia’s solar generators claim 24% efficiency in converting solar energy into electricity, a number that stands reasonably higher than current averages for solar photovoltaic cells. A good deal of their potential also lies in off-the-grid possibilities in rural areas and for homeowners. Because Infinia could use current auto technology with little upgrade, they believe they can cut costs considerably and deliver cheap, clean power to their customers. Infinia’s goal is to produce 100,000 Infinia Solar Systems in 2010 at a price of $15,000 each.

 

For such goals to be reached, Infinia will need some large scale manufacturing capacity. Fortunately, their Stirling-based design is relatively simple and easy to mass produce, especially for the auto industry, which already has the technology and equipment to do the job.

infinia-engine.gif
Photo Credit: infiniacorp.com

 

Auto suppliers are already equipped with more than enough capacity and skill to support Infinia’s needs. First of all, automobiles run on internal combustion engines, which are more complicated than Stirling engines, so adaptability for auto suppliers is not an issue. Not only that, many auto suppliers are currently in desperate need of work due to unprecedented decline in the American auto industry. According to CNN, the auto industry used less than 60% of its manufacturing capacity in 2008. That creates a potentially symbiotic and lucrative relationship for both Infinia and the auto industry

 

So far the dish collector and engine — the two most important pieces of the Infinia system — are currently being manufactured by Autoliv and Cosma, two prominent auto suppliers.

 


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#4 panther

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 3:08 PM

Wind power is the most cost effective depending on the price of the mill, it can pay for itself in as little as 3-4 years at around 1$ per watt for the cost of the unit.

 

Solar power is not really that effective. The cheapest panels I've been able to find are around 1$ a watt (about the same as wind) but you only get 6-7 usable hours per day out of them here. The cost of the inverters easily double the price of the system so you'll end up paying 2$ per watt. With 6 hours a day of usable sun 365 days a year this close to the equator with 12% efficiency you'll be looking at around 96W per sqm of solar surface area. Assuming each panel is 1SQM you'd be looking at about 576 watts per day per panel or 210KWH per year per panel which is roughly 29$ per year. Most panels are a bit larger than 1SQM and some have efficiency ratings higher than 12%. But you're still looking at a payoff time of a minimum of 5 years.

 

The government has laws that will force the local electric companies to buy back your power, but only to the amount you use. They will NOT give you a check for providing excess power. If you want to provide power and get paid to do it that falls under the 60/40 provision of the constitution, and if you're going to do it to make money, your best bet is with wind power (assuming you have enough stable wind at a high enough speed to make it worthwhile).

 

There are some systems at less than 2$ a watt including inverters but you'll need to import them. http://www.wholesalesolar.com/

 

As an example: http://www.wholesale...tie-system.html

 

That system is 60 solar panels which would cover your entire roof and then some at a cost of 27,900$ including inverters. "up to 2,120.40 kWh" per month with 5 hours of sun per day.

 

2120 (kwh) * 12 (months per year) * 6 (pesos per KWH) / 43 (conversion to USD) = 3549USD per year

27900 (cost of system) / 3549 (money made per year) = 7.8 years to pay for itself.

 

If you're doing it to offset a percentage of your electrical usage you can change that calculation to 8 pesos per kwh (because you won't have to pay for transmission charges, etc) which results in a 25% decrease in time to pay off. 7.8 years to 5.8 years.

 

The most cost effective solar is solar thermal which requires a relatively large amount of space and an expensive setup but can be done at or less than 1$ per watt at the highest solar efficiency levels. It can also continue to generate electricity after the sun goes down with stored thermal energy in the form of (typically) molten salt.

 

..

 

With the cheap cost of labor here it would be really nice to see a firm start developing windmills locally from locally made generators that are able to be grid tied directly (large wind mills don't need inverters)... Then just start lining the ridge lines with them.

The only time you get wind in the philippines is when a typhoon comes by .spent 2 years on mactan and can,t remember hardly encountering a windy day at all.



#5 Woolf

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 3:23 PM

Wind farms are not new to the philippines

 

http://en.wikipedia....angui_Wind_Farm


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#6 senseless

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 6:22 PM

The only time you get wind in the philippines is when a typhoon comes by .spent 2 years on mactan and can,t remember hardly encountering a windy day at all.

 

Go to the mountains, plenty of wind. The turbines need to be on the ridge line facing the pacific.



#7 senseless

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 6:24 PM

...

 

David,

 

Last I read the stiriling engine while amazing in operation didn't last very long due to the parts wearing. They're not exactly new tech, there has been a 25Kw stiriling engine attached to a dish at los alamos since the 70s. The problem with them was always material sciences. If new, stronger materials can be found then they would indeed be amazing.


Edited by senseless, 29 October 2013 - 6:27 PM .


#8 panther

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 7:02 PM

Go to the mountains, plenty of wind. The turbines need to be on the ridge line facing the pacific.

don,t do mountains lol



#9 David_LivinginTalisay

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 8:41 PM

David,

 

Last I read the stiriling engine while amazing in operation didn't last very long due to the parts wearing. They're not exactly new tech, there has been a 25Kw stiriling engine attached to a dish at los alamos since the 70s. The problem with them was always material sciences. If new, stronger materials can be found then they would indeed be amazing.

 

I read on the Infinea PowerDish web site, that their Strirling Engine/Linear Alternator was designed for 25 years, and the only maintenance they predicted, was change of oil every 10 years.

infinia-engine.gif

As this animated view shows, the Stirling engine piston is not exactly moving very rapidly (much slower than a diesel engine, and they last longer than gasoline engines, before rebuilds are required - in part due to the low reciprocating forces)!
In turn, the linear alternator moves at  the same relatively slow speed.
 

An electric fan, powered by the alternator output, keeps the other end of the Stirling engine cool.  

 

It is the pressure differential between the hot end and the cool end that moves the piston!  This, together with the diaphragm springs, ensures the cycle is repeated over and over again!  Provided there is enough CSP (Concentrated Solar Power), to heat up the hot end of that Sterling Engine, to create the pressure differential (when the sun comes up) and the 'Stirling Cycle' starts over, once again (until the sun goes down, and the hot end, is no longer hot enough, compared to the cool end).

Far less moving parts to go wrong and wear out, than a diesel engine, and slower reciprocating speeds also, and diesel generators dont wear out very quickly.

 

if you read those URL's I gave, it looks like they are developing 'Duel Fuel', so it can also be powered by BIO Fuel (for when the sun has gone down, the Fuel provides the heat).  The Military are very interested in such development!



#10 senseless

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Posted 29 October 2013 - 8:55 PM

I read on the Infinea PowerDish web site, that their Strirling Engine/Linear Alternator was designed for 25 years, and the only maintenance they predicted, was change of oil every 10 years.

infinia-engine.gif

As this animated view shows, the Stirling engine piston is not exactly moving very rapidly (much slower than a diesel engine, and they last longer than gasoline engines, before rebuilds are required - in part due to the low reciprocating forces)!
In turn, the linear alternator moves at  the same relatively slow speed.
 

An electric fan, powered by the alternator output, keeps the other end of the Stirling engine cool.  

 

It is the pressure differential between the hot end and the cool end that moves the piston!  This, together with the diaphragm springs, ensures the cycle is repeated over and over again!  Provided there is enough CSP (Concentrated Solar Power), to heat up the hot end of that Sterling Engine, to create the pressure differential (when the sun comes up) and the 'Stirling Cycle' starts over, once again (until the sun goes down, and the hot end, is no longer hot enough, compared to the cool end).

Far less moving parts to go wrong and wear out, than a diesel engine, and slower reciprocating speeds also, and diesel generators dont wear out very quickly.

 

if you read those URL's I gave, it looks like they are developing 'Duel Fuel', so it can also be powered by BIO Fuel (for when the sun has gone down, the Fuel provides the heat).  The Military are very interested in such development!

 

 

That's cool, the problems that I was reading about (5-6 years ago) were having to due with wear on the seals if i recall correctly. I just remember reading that they required a lot of maintenance in replacing the seals. If they've got that problem licked then it's definitely ready to go. It looks like the design may have changed to resolve the problem. Any idea what one of the power dishes cost on a $ per watt basis?


Edited by senseless, 29 October 2013 - 8:57 PM .





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